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March 12, 2004

Sorry Dean, but I have to go there

Dean Esmay (who I just remembered owes me a discussion on race) has another one of those interesting posts where a comment

Hitler was only "democratically" elected if you think someone whose party gets 30% of the vote, then uses backroom maneuvering to sieze power and overthrow the democratic government (pretty much what Allende did in Chile too, come to think of it) counts. Countries like Germany and Italy were fascist nations who went fascist because, it was argued by much of the intelligentsia and by the fascists themselves, that liberal democracy was a failed experiment and could not survive.[P6: emphasis added]

…demands as much attention as the post itself:

Live Free Or Die
Stephen Green has the line of the day.

"But part of me is so angry after yesterday's bombing, that all I could think was, "Isn't it time we made that American sentiment 'Live free or die' into a goddamn ultimatum?"

He says he's not proud of that sentiment. Increasingly, I'm not sure why he should be. In fact, I rather wish I'd said it.

When you look at the countries in the Iraq "coalition", one must conclude "freedom" and "free nations" have become terms of art. So my question about the post is, is that ultimatum to be applied domestically as well?

And the comment…posted by Dean himself…ought to give any honest person more than enough reason to run the Democratic column in November.

Posted by P6 at March 12, 2004 07:25 PM
Trackback URL: http://www.niggerati.net/mt/mt-tb.cgi/810
Comments

If you really think that freedom and democracy are "terms of art," when referring to nations such as Australia, Spain, the United Kingdom, Poland and the rest of the Eastern European nations, I really don't think we have even a basis for discussion, because we have no common ground.

Ditto if you put "coaltion" in scare quotes like that. It's the largest coalition assembled since World War II, and pretending it's not one just because it doesn't include France, Germany, and Russia is just plain crazy if you ask me.

Finally, as for backroom maneuvering to seize power: I assume you're talking about the 2000 election.

Fact is that Bush won fair and square, and did it without any cheating, and was elected in the way that every President of the United States has ever been elected--including even guys like John F. Kennedy, who was the last President to win the election even though he came in second in the popular vote, and was like the fourth guy to do that. Because you don't win the world series by scoring the most runs, and you don't win the Presidency by getting the most popular vote. People need to stop being crybabies about that, and they need to stop making up lies about how Bush "cheated," because he didn't. Most of the backroom maneuvering was from the Gore camp, and it failed.

I do still owe you a conversation on race. I'm still honestly afraid to have it for some reason. I feel it will only result in hurt feelings and misunderstaning--the last two times I went there I got called a racist, and it just gets old you know? I'm getting kind of jaded on the whole thing, I really am. I feel like nothing's ever gonna change, so why bother?

Posted by Dean Esmay at March 12, 2004 09:03 PM

If you really think that freedom and democracy are "terms of art," when referring to nations such as Australia, Spain, the United Kingdom, Poland and the rest of the Eastern European nations, I really don't think we have even a basis for discussion, because we have no common ground.

I think if you keep going down the list we'd reach a point where we agree. There are some rather unfortunate characters in the coalition…scare-quoted the USofA is rightfully bearing the full weight of the occupation. Scare-quoted because of the number of coalition members that don't even have a standing army to contribute.

Finally, as for backroom maneuvering to seize power: I assume you're talking about the 2000 election.

More like the redistricting messes, and changing the rules and procedures such that Democrats have like an hour IF that much to read a huge proposal that was hashed out while duck hunting or something. And lying to their own party members about the repercussions of their legislation.

Actually, when you're not stuck in the past there's even more to be distrustful over.

I do still owe you a conversation on race. I'm still honestly afraid to have it for some reason. I feel it will only result in hurt feelings and misunderstaning--the last two times I went there I got called a racist, and it just gets old you know? I'm getting kind of jaded on the whole thing, I really am. I feel like nothing's ever gonna change, so why bother?

Though I understand that I can't help but feel it must be nice to have that option. About this in particular I don't intend to stress you…between my history and economics studies I think I'm coming to an understanding that it would be unfair to others to debate with.

So, of course, as soon as I get it clear in my own mind I'll ne debating everybody and they momma.

Until then, I'll just periodically remind folks of how bad things have gotten under the current administration, and that it's the result of conscious power-seeking decisions by the Republican and Conservative parties.

Posted by P6 at March 12, 2004 09:45 PM