http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0407/23/pzn.00.html

ZAHN: That was our Jason Carroll reporting from Detroit.

Joining me now to discuss President Bush's efforts to reach out to African-Americans, one of his campaign advisers, the Reverend Joe Watkins, pastor of the oldest African-American Lutheran church in Philadelphia.

Welcome.

REV. JOE WATKINS, BUSH CAMPAIGN ADVISER: Let's talk about some of those numbers. And they are striking when you look at what polls are showing today, that BET/CBS News poll that 79 percent of African- Americans say they will vote for John Kerry come November, only 10 percent for the president. Why does the president poll so low among African-Americans?

WATKINS: Well, it's not November yet, Paula. Remember that.

In his first campaign for governor in Texas, the president got less than 10 percent of the African-American vote. But in his second campaign for governor, he got about 30 percent of the African-American vote. So I think that, as the president continues to talk to the community, talk to Americans and in particular African-Americans and he gets his message out so they can hear it, that people are going to vote for him.

You're going to see a larger percentage of African-Americans vote for him than last time.

Why does everyone assume Black people don't know what George W. Bush's message is? Even Rev. Watkins is pushing the thought. The discussion is being had about how George is a known quantity, Kerry has to establish an identity…l'il Georgie is known everywhere except the Black community?

ZAHN: But you have to concede, we would be talking about a glacial shift if he were to outnumber the John Kerry vote. What do you think he has got to do, particularly when you heard people at the Urban League convention saying we don't think this president understands what is going on in our communities economically; he hasn't broadened his reach enough?

WATKINS: Well, he certainly does.

He understands that the keys to changing your situation, to helping the African-American community to be everything that it can be economically is to support education, which he's done with the Leave No Child Behind Act, which really does level the playing field for kids, especially kids in the inner cities, by bolstering economic development and entrepreneurship, which he's done with the tax cuts and the incentives for small businesses to grow and to really prosper, which is wonderful, and, likewise, by strengthening families, because in African-American communities, the breakup of the family unit has been devastating for us.

And this president understands the importance of strong families.

Okay, George Bush has strengthened families? When did he do that? Probably just before negotiating that peace settlement in the Sudan. We did the tax cut thing yesterday, I think.

ZAHN: Do you think the African-American community, by and large, has felt the benefits of the Bush tax cut?

WATKINS: I think so.

I also think the African-American community heard the president loud and clear when he said today, are you going to be taken for grant? Are you being taken for granted by the Democratic Party? Does the Democratic Party automatically deserve your vote?

No details, just "yes," and change the subject.

If you look at the president and John Kerry and you contrast their records, there is no comparison. John Kerry is a Democrat. He has no real relationship with African-Americans; 20 years in the Senate, no African-Americans on his Senate staff, just recently named a black person to his campaign. President George Bush, he has named the first African-American to be secretary of state, has an African- American national security adviser who is a woman as well, and has two African-American Cabinet members.

Okay, George W. Bush has a relationship with African-Americans? If he means Dr. Rice and Gen. Powell, well I'm sure some of Kerry's best friends are Black too.

There was a name for the tactics of putting a Black person in prominent view, an example used to ward off accusations of racism-sitting a spook by the door. Very popular in the 60s.

ZAHN: You make a good point, but there are people who say that that doesn't necessarily translate to improvements in our community. Why do you think the black community has voted in large blocks for Democrats historically? Why that alignment?

WATKINS: Well, that has been our -- That has been a history. The Democrats have certainly worked hard to get our vote, and now Republicans are working hard to make sure that the message gets out, because when African-Americans hear the message of this president and this party they're going to come out in larger numbers for the Republicans.

Now I know what this reminds me of.

ZAHN: A lot of controversy over the president not speaking before the NAACP, and I want to put up on the screen what the president of that organization had to say about that.

Quote, "For him to say that he doesn't want to be with us because we don't agree with him or because somebody made a reference to him that he didn't like is foolishness. If his mandate is that he will only meet with organizations that agree with him, then God save our nation."

Was it a mistake...

WATKINS: Absolutely not.

ZAHN: ...for the president to what some people of your organization, the NAACP, would say dissed them?

There's one slang word I won't be using anymore…

WATKINS: Absolutely not. I think he made the right decision not to attend the NAACP convention. I think the offer for him to attend was disingenuous. And I think that Kweisi Mfume and Julian Bond certainly poisoned the water with some of the venomous rhetoric that they had out before the convention started.

ZAHN: Does that mean you're no longer associating yourself with the NAACP?

Good question.

WATKINS: No, the NAACP is at its best when it's fighting for people who are downtrodden, people of color who are downtrodden, and I support that. Organizations like the NAACP ought to be political, but they ought not be partisan. They ought not put African-Americans in the hip pocket of either political party, and that's what these leaders of the NAACP, today's leaders have done.

So, you're saying they should convince us to vote for a party while it actively opposies our interests.

That's YOUR job, Rev, and I think you're a slacker for trying to palm it off on someone else.

ZAHN: But finally tonight, you know the NAACP, Julian Bond, in particular was pretty tough on the Democrats as well?

WATKINS: Well, he ought to be. They haven't done anything to deserve our vote automatically.

ZAHN: So it wasn't like they were just attacking the president?

Another good one, Paula! I'll forgive you for the "what people of your organization would say, dissed them" excess of cuteness.

WATKINS: Well, the Urban League has really led by example, and what I mean is that they've worked hard to foster a working dialogue with both political parties, and that's the way it should be.

That's hard when one party refuses to talk to you.

ZAHN: Reverend Watkins, thank you for spending some time with us here in New York tonight.

WATKINS: Thanks for having me.