Do not make the mistake of thinking that because my conclusion is the same as another person's that my reasoning is the same
Hui Neng, the sixth Patriach of Zen, said there is no difference between the Buddha nature of an enlightened person and that of a person operating under delusion. This means intelligence only works one way; the difference is what we apply our intelligence to. If we cling to illusion, insist on something that is not true, our intelligence will create another untruth to compensate. You can tell if you are under delusion if you must continually explain to yourself why you were right to be wrong.
Because there is only one way intelligence works, I am convinced I can understand others if I listen, and they can understand me if I speak with my understanding of them in mind.
Therefore, I am adding every Black blogger I run across to my RSS feeds.
There are some that I just don't agree with, but we are trying to answer similar questions. I hope to be able to hold conversations with these folks just about everything because there are some things that I don't do and therefore that I don't understand.
LATER: I decided to go into what made me post this.
Sister posting under the nom de plume "baldilocks" got a reference from Negrophile, for a post I was feeling. Seriously, as annoyed as I get at what I see sometimes, I recognize that even had my exact genetic structure turned up somewhere else on the planet it could not have developed into me anywhere but here…and I'm cooler than a mug. And I read a bit as I am wont to do when I hit a new blog. Sister is conservative…I could tell from her "Why I am a Republican" posts. Though I've heard similar in the past she doesn't strike me as neocon so I keep reading until I hit this:
Heck, I don?t even like every black person. In fact, I don?t like most of them. (Don?t start feeling smug, others. I don?t like most of you either.)
Some Jamaican and African immigrants I know have even said as much. The man who owns the cleaners that I frequent, an American born in Jamaica, put it this way: ?You [native-born black] Americans care about things that most of us don?t. Trivialities. You want everyone to love you.?
When black (and other) immigrants come here from places where most don?t have adequate housing, in-door plumbing, food, health care and opportunities, they make the most of it and worry about people liking them later, if at all.
You should read her whole post, as well as the followup, a response to a brother who didn't like her perspective, in which she says
And I find myself asking myself, did she see the possibly meritorious points when the comments were originally made? If so, why were they allowed to pass? If not, why not? And why still no comment on them after they were pointed out? That's all just curiousity, which can be pursued or dropped, whatever.
What sticks in my head is that she almost gets it. Black people do not want white people to love all Black folks. Black people want the same sense of belonging other ethnic groups have.
Jamaicans get that sense from other Jamaicans.
Nigerians get it from other Nigerians.
Koreans get it from other Koreans.
Jews get it from other Jews.
White Americans get it from other white Americans.
Where do Black Americans get it from? Certainly not white Americans, or any of the other groups I've named or could name. And when we try to get it from each other we're are accused of reverse racism, self segregation or another alliteration.
Meanwhile, as I've said before and will (I'm sure) have occasion to repeat, for social animals belonging is a primal need. And we, before intelligence, before consciousness, are social animals.
This is why there's so much emphasis on community in Black revolutionary circles. It's a driving force behind Africentrism, Black Nationalism. It's something most Black people understand on the gut-check level but is harder than hell to articulate.
And I need to understand why some Black folks don't acknowledge that. I can speculate, but I think I'd do better to actually read and understand their patterns.
Posted by P6 at August 31, 2003 08:43 PM | Trackback URL: http://www.prometheus6.org/mt/mt-tb.cgi/1490Thanks for linking to my post and for intelligent responses to same.
I didn't feel the need to respond to the comments in my post, because while most of the observations were anectodotal, I could see that they were only pointing out symptoms of the problem or pieces of the puzzle. Also, I didn't want to hog the conversation.
My quibbles with said posts were just that; irrelevant to the point and not worth the contention. (Now I can argue a point down to a fair-thee-well--why else would I be a blogger--but even I know when it's not worth the time.)
The only reason I got into it with the gentleman in question, was that he (also) linked to me and had comments to make, both on my blog and his own.
Interesting around here. I'm looking around.
Cheers.
BTW, I was a bit confused as to what I didn't get. E-mail me if you don't want to get into it here.
I don't think you're being terribly facetious when you say:
Black people want you to like them, every last one of them
"Like" isn't the right concept. "Acknowledge" is closer. "Not constantly challenge the validity of their views and experiences" almost nails it. "Recognize them individually as members of the in-group they identify with (which group, all denials aside, is actually the citizenry of the USofA)," once you delete the "every last one of them" pretty well sums it up but most folks don't uses sociology terminology like "in-group." Damn shame, because it's the tightest expression of the necessary concept.
You spelled out in detail what I was facetiously referring to.
My question: is it too much to ask of others not to question the validity of these views and experiences?
And, should individuals examine the validity of their own views every now and then?
BTW, I've linked to you as well.
My question: is it too much to ask of others not to question the validity of these views and experiences?
If (editorial) you aren't questioning your own, yes it is.
And, should individuals examine the validity of their own views every now and then?
I challenge myself on the regular. I accept challenges too. Others I question more than challenge. My question to you about the post that started it all is, who's your intended audience?
See, the way you said all that was not in a fashion that Black folks will hear as an attempt to be helpful. I'm pretty convinced you know that. And when white folks respond like
Black Americans Victims Of Their Own Leaders
Juliette aptly illustrates the "white man keepin' us down" fallacy being sold to some of the minorities by their own leaders and she exposes it for what it is � an excuse to fail.
and you don't challenge it, it would be real easy to write you off. As you say, this sort of response is a piece of the puzzle and part of the problem. But do you realize your acceptance of this misunderstanding of your statement is seen as validation by Chan Eddy?
Of course you do.
And when Will did not respond well to the comments you challenged HIM…further validating the truly bullshit assumption that Black people do not want success or prosperity?
You know, I'll have a similar experience and tell a similar story…up to a point. The point will be where I try to school the brother on how his attitude is a problem, and maybe how to get around it. And the story I'll tell will be about how it's is a normal, though suboptimal, human reaction to come to his conclusion while living in his circumstances.
This is not an attempt to hold the moral high ground. It's a recognition that if I meet Chan Eddy I will start out facing an even further entrenched set of assumptions.
Was it actually "not worth the time" to say "Black Americans Victims Of Their Own Leaders" was not the point of your post? Or was it…I'm open to being convinced I'm wrong on this point as well.
P6 in bold
My question: is it too much to ask of others not to question the validity of these views and experiences?
If (editorial) you aren't questioning your own, yes it is.
Okay. But I got from your statement was that many black people want many white people to ease up on the questions, regardless of the given white person's condition of introspection.
My question to you about the post that started it all is, who's your intended audience?
Anyone who wants to read. In my �about me� section of my blog, I stated that my main goal was to brush up on my skills as a diarist.
See, the way you said all that was not in a fashion that Black folks will hear as an attempt to be helpful. I'm pretty convinced you know that.
I�m not (necessarily) trying to be helpful. I�m just putting down what�s on my mind. If my missives help, that�s a bonus, but, as I mentioned above, it�s not my primary motivation, if at all.
Juliette aptly illustrates the "white man keepin' us down" fallacy being sold to some of the minorities by their own leaders and she exposes it for what it is � an excuse to fail.
and you don't challenge it, it would be real easy to write you off.
Black �Leaders:� The way I originally read the post from WEP that you quoted was that the effect which some so-called black leaders was spelled out by my post. But you're right about the headline, which I re-read.
To paraphrase a famous sci-fi character: I've been written off before. I've learned to live with it.
And when Will did not respond well to the comments you challenged HIM�further validating the truly bullshit assumption that Black people do not want success or prosperity?
I did no such thing. If a person views an attempt to get clarification of terms as a �challenge,� then it�s a pointless exercise to attempt to engage person in constructive dialog.
See, I�m like this: if you (editorial) have a better idea than I do about a given topic, make your case. If it�s reasonable, I may change my opinion. You may have brought up some things that I hadn�t considered when forming my own opinion. What Will didn�t understand was that this was what I was trying to get him to do. So he left in a huff.
Sister b:
But I got from your statement was that many black people want many white people to ease up on the questions, regardless of the given white person's condition of introspection.
That's only because you stopped in the middle of the paragraph:
"Like" isn't the right concept. "Acknowledge" is closer. "Not constantly challenge the validity of their views and experiences" almost nails it. "Recognize them individually as members of the in-group they identify with (which group, all denials aside, is actually the citizenry of the USofA)," once you delete the "every last one of them" pretty well sums it up
In my "about me" section of my blog, I stated that my main goal was to brush up on my skills as a diarist.
…
I�m not (necessarily) trying to be helpful. I�m just putting down what�s on my mind. If my missives help, that�s a bonus, but, as I mentioned above, it�s not my primary motivation, if at all.
Okay, I am with that.
As a conservative Black person, you will get an audience that will simply close their mind when the letter P and the number 6 appears in sequence. I would just ask you to reflect on the fact that you ARE being read, and (racial conditions in the USofA being what they are) your statements will reflect on all of us whether you intend it or not, whether you like it or not…because the impact of your statements is pretty predictable.
Black 'Leaders:' The way I originally read the post from WEP that you quoted was that the effect [of] some so-called black leaders was spelled out by my post.
I think leadership is another issue that I may need to spend some time on.
But you're right about the headline, which I re-read.
Thank you.
To paraphrase a famous sci-fi character: I've been written off before. I've learned to live with it.
You recognize, I hope, that's not my intent.
The person in your exfoliation station you spoke of was damaged, and likely long before he heard any putative Black leader explain his position. It's simply not helpful to any of us, of any race, to believe someone chose that attitude. No one wants to be broke. No one wants to be broken. But many people find it a comfort to believe otherwise.
Juliette, with a small application of consciousness your very existance is an asset to Black folks because you can communicate with people with that type of ignorance about Black folks.
See, I�m like this: if you (editorial) have a better idea than I do about a given topic, make your case. If it�s reasonable, I may change my opinion. You may have brought up some things that I hadn�t considered when forming my own opinion. What Will didn�t understand was that this was what I was trying to get him to do. So he left in a huff.
Okay. Maybe I've been doing this too long. I reflexively see all manner of nuances in people's statements and comments and such that you, not being on a mission, won't look for. I need to start looking for signs that people are not looking into things the way I am.
P,
I'll answer some of your points later.
BTW, though some of your links make me twitch, I think I like you. ;-)
BTW, though some of your links make me twitch, I think I like you. ;-)
You can take your time making up your mind. I'm not going anywhere. Well, the site isn't but you know what I mean.
P6 in bold:
But I got from your statement was that many black people want many white people to ease up on the questions, regardless of the given white person's condition of introspection.
That's only because you stopped in the middle of the paragraph:
"Like" isn't the right concept. "Acknowledge" is closer. "Not constantly challenge the validity of their views and experiences" almost nails it. "Recognize them individually as members of the in-group they identify with (which group, all denials aside, is actually the citizenry of the USofA)," once you delete the "every last one of them" pretty well sums it up
I may have not included the above paragraph in my response (my bad), but I kept it in mind when responding.
Acknowledging the valdity of views is different from questioning them (okay, I'm quibbling, but I do have a point coming).
Why should black Americans (or anyone else) be exempt from having their views questioned, whatever those views may be?
Why should black Americans (or anyone else) be [less subject to] having their views questioned, whatever those views may be?
We're not. You know that.
We're MORE subject to it.
Glad the server's back. To continue:
I don�t know that, not from personal experience anyway. But, for the sake of argument, let�s say you�re right. What is wrong with blacks receiving more questions about their points of view than others?
I don�t know that, not from personal experience anyway
There is much that you don't know from personal experience that you act on anyway, Juliette.
You know that Black people are more subject to having their assumptions questioned than the mainstream is, if only because we are not the mainstream.
Don't try to play me and I won't try to play you, okay?
What is wrong with blacks receiving more questions about their points of view than others?
And this is not a place where the mainstream view hold sway. Here, the assumption is Black people's understanding and experience is valid, because I am Black and I know my understanding is valid.
Since I see things that way, you need to explain to me why I should question my views. It's that simple.
If you're not going to assume that I'm being honest, then why bother?
I haven't assumed you'n not being honest. On the contrary:
I don�t know that, not from personal experience anyway
You are the one that entered the qualification. So you know. Just not from your personal experience.
Truth, Juliette, if you want this discussion for the sake of argument, I ain't the one. We can talk as long and deep as you like…but I don't so shallow.
No, P6. I was referring to this:
You know that Black people are more subject to having their assumptions questioned than the mainstream is, if only because we are not the mainstream.
Don't try to play me and I won't try to play you, okay?
(The last line of my last post should be italicized.)
And since you only know me from a microcosm of what I've come to believe through my 42 years of living, you have no way of knowing this:
There is much that you don't know from personal experience that you act on anyway, Juliette.
And since you only know me from a microcosm of what I've come to believe through my 42 years of living, you have no way of knowing this:
There is much that you don't know from personal experience that you act on anyway, Juliette.
You don't even deny that it is the case. You simply state that I have no way of knowing it in your particular case. But I do, because there is much that EVERYONE acts on that they haven't learned from personal experience. I can't tell you what, specifically, those things are in your particular case. But that those things exist is a simple fact with every human.
In saying:
[You] don�t know that[black Americans are more subject to having their views questioned], not from personal experience anyway.
you say that personal experience is not the source of your knowledge.
I do not believe you speak casually. I do not disbelieve you. I could be wrong in either assumption.
Let me ask you directly: be it from personal knowledge or the explanation of someone you believe, do you find in general that the validity of Black people's assumptions come into question more or less than white folks' assumptions?
You can give the reason you answer the way you do, but I'm interested in the yes or no part of the answer at this point.
Just in case Juliette wants to answer, this will make the comment thread easier to find on the front page.