Do not make the mistake of thinking that because my conclusion is the same as another person's that my reasoning is the same
I had reason to run past the National Libertarian Party's web site today. After reading their platform, I wound up with a few questions.
Is this limited to physical force? Would psychological or economic coercion count? Would this include not forcing anyone to accept the fundamental principle? If so, how can one enforce this without initiating force?
What about involuntary trade? To participate in society, one must have hot water, electricity…food. Anyone who calls the acquisition of these things voluntary is simply too silly to talk to. So, are these things outside the purview of government?
Taxes supported the building of energy generation facilities, oil pipelines, etc. Pollution is created by inefficient combustion of fuel and careless dumping of garbage (which government authorities haul away from your house) and inductrial wastes (which corporations uniformly deny until confronted with evidence beyond the ability of individuals to procure). Health care for the masses are delivered through government owned hospitals. Decaying cities actually were largely caused by government intervention in the for of GI loans. And poverty just is. The great increase in poverty we're seeing now is the result of people being laid off.
In other words, I'm not seeing the causation.
Posted by P6 at November 3, 2003 05:50 PM | Trackback URL: http://www.prometheus6.org/mt/mt-tb.cgi/2182As I understand it (and the National Committee and I disagree on a lot):
1) All force is, at its root, physical (by definition.) Coercion absent force -- or threat of force, because threat carries the same effect -- is distasteful but cannot be legislated without an attempt to legislate morality rather than objective rights.
The initiation answer is easy. The rules are laid out, and the only way to violate the rules is to use force or property right violations. Therefore someone who violates the rules (limited libertarian rules) is initiating force.
One of the things to remember is that government, at its root, is the collective use of force. That means that it is impossible for a citizen to initiate force against the government, because the government is force. (Keep that in mind when you read that LP oath.)
2) What you are calling involuntary is not. Participating in society is a choice. You should have the choice to go be a mountain man (provided you aren't violating property rights) and do without hot water, electricity, and processed food. If you chose to live in society, you do it with the agreements that society has established. What our government does not do is allow someone to tell society to get bent and go off on his own.
3) They are focusing on the problems, not the ills themselves. Pollution is worst when government sanctions it, and doesn't allow the tort system to work out the property rights. Health care is not delivered through government hospitals. There are government hospitals, but that isn't where medicine is being advanced. If I need a brand new operation, I'm going to Baylor, not Parkland. As for poverty, I agree, it just is. However, the free market has some people out of poverty, while the government has never lifted people out of poverty.
When they say "are not solved, but are primarily caused" they don't mean that government is the cause of all the problems, but that it rarely solves the problems and often creates them. (Platforms are written by committee. Part of the process.)
Phelps:
What about involuntary trade? To participate in society, one must have hot water, electricity�food. Anyone who calls the acquisition of these things voluntary is simply too silly to talk to.What you are calling involuntary is not. Participating in society is a choice. You should have the choice to go be a mountain man (provided you aren't violating property rights) and do without hot water, electricity, and processed food. If you chose to live in society, you do it with the agreements that society has established. What our government does not do is allow someone to tell society to get bent and go off on his own.
Ipso facto…