Do not make the mistake of thinking that because my conclusion is the same as another person's that my reasoning is the same
ABC News just finished an interesting special titled "How To Get Fat Without Really Trying." It seems the transcript is already online. It's another long one and it has grist for the two major mills around here—progressives and libertarians.
Who's to blame for America's obesity? Is it bad eating habits or poorly executed exercise regimes? Could the government and the food industry also be to blame?
"We're besieged," said Michael Jacobson, director of the Center for Science in the Public Interest. "Wherever we go, we're encouraged to eat junk food."
Some say that personal health and well being are a matter of personal responsibility. But the processed food industry and the government know what is happening � and they are making a bad situation worse.
I posted a link to an article from the NY Times on obesity and it was followed by a bit of a discussion. The post was on 12/1: http://nevafeva.com/blog/2003_12_01_archive.html#107028891322194867 Thanks for posting the link to the ABC news report.
The libertarian would focus on the problem of non-discriminatory health-insurance, where those that observe a healthy lifestyle are forced to subsidize those that do not. There is nothing "wrong" with obese people from a libertarian viewpoint, other than the fact that others have to pay for their [on the average] surplus medical costs.
Sadly, making people responsible for their own actions is not part of leftist doctrine. Indeed, obese people are portrayed here as victims, and now we have "advertising made me do it" a valid defense.
Following that, "Charles manson made me do it" or "Voices in my head told me to do it" might become equally valid defenses.
On a more constructive note, since we won't see a major overhaul of the health insurance system soon, we might as well introduce a "carbohydrate tax" on sugary and fatty foods.
Thanks Al-M. I really should look at these things before walking away.
I'm fairly close to a desktop client for MT that works the way I want it to. Hopefully such little errors can be systemically prevented.
Dof, while obesity is becoming a greater and greater health problem in this country, I would hardly say as you do that the entire health-insurance debate is about it. In fact, you seem to be implying that most lower-income people have health problems due to their own laziness or moral failings and don't deserve it. Do you actually know people who don't have health insurance and have you discussed with them what kind of things they might need medical care for. Let's try to move this discussion beyond stereotypes.
AM, I don't think he said that. He said that the libertarian would focus on the issue. I agree with him that it is an issue, but I don't think it is one very many people will get. Reforming health care will come about quicker by letting people like me who don't need substance abuse and pregnancy coverage opt-out on those coverages, and then extend it out.
In a way, I do have the situation he describes. Our firm is partially self-insured, and they subsidize gym memberships and make healthy habits convenient. In return, the firm spends less on insurance (since we pick up everything but the biggest expenses) and as we get healthier, then our insurance costs us less.
What it comes down to is that obesity is not a virus that you catch (despite the best efforts of some people to prove that.) You can have a propensity towards it, but 98% of fat people are there simply because of poor life choices. I don't want to have to pay because someone else is stupid. (That's pretty much the sentiment of fiscal libertarianism boiled down.)
Well, to me, health insurance is the difference between being able to see a doctor or not at all. That's how it is for people who are uninsured, because even routine medical care is too expensive for most people to afford on their own.
I often wonder how many libertarians have been in a position where they can't afford to fend for themselves as they seem to think everybody should do. To be honest, the libertarian position on this issue seems lacking in compassion to me.
Al-Muhajabah,
That is a common criticism of the libertarian position, however it is a flawed one.
Much of the cost of medical care is due to the fact that there is a significant number of social paternalists who want to be seen as compassionate.
Cutting back on the laws governing insurance, HMOs (a government creation, by the way), and how medical care is delivered, would dramatically reduce the cost of medical care. It is you paternalists who are making it expensive. And a way to cut back on the cost of prescription drugs is to somehow tax drugs that are sent to countries that place price caps on them which thereby making US citizens subsidize their socialism through higher costs here.
Thanks for enlightening me that I am a paternalist. The ease with which you jump to conclusions is truly a marvel to behold.
I often wonder how many libertarians have been in a position where they can't afford to fend for themselves as they seem to think everybody should do. To be honest, the libertarian position on this issue seems lacking in compassion to me.
AM, I have been put in a position where I could not fend for myself. The government put me there. Giving someone an ice pack after you punch him in the nose does not make you a good guy.
So yes, I have lived on handouts. I have been foreclosed out of a house. I have been hungry. I have been poor. And none of it was my fault, because I was a child.
Government theft -- forced charity -- is not the answer to those problems. I give to charity. I help people who can't help themselves, because it is the right thing to do. But I'll be damned -- and I mean that in the purest sense -- if I condone the use the government to stick a gun in someone's face amd make them give to charity.
Brian:
You make assertions with no support. You're free to do that of course, but don't expect me to treat those statements as facts.
Phelps:
I'd be interested in hearing how the Government is at fault.
dof:
Sadly, making people responsible for their own actions is not part of leftist doctrine.
That's not the case.
At any rate, I personally feel corporations should be at least as accountable as humans.
Keep in mind that people can only choose from that which is available. The special's point was as much that even the best of choices made from poor options gets poor results.
>>Sadly, making people responsible for their own actions is not part of leftist doctrine.
>That's not the case.
Well then, whoever gives credibility to the "advertisement made me do it" argument.
>even the best of choices made from poor options gets poor results.
I can agree with you that if you have less money, you have less choices. However, it's only a small step from there to the unproductive "It doesn't matter what choice I make" attitude.