American Intrapolitics: Originalist intent

Submitted by Prometheus 6 on October 8, 2005 - 12:41pm.
on Justice

What normally happens when I start paying particular attention to a particular topic, I just gather data and let it settle until something gels and I have a pattern I can start testing. On this Supreme Court/judicial philosophy thing, Justice Breyers' latest book was the coagulant.

Among the things that fell into place was some of Chief Justice Roberts' testimony at his nomination hearings. The particular statements were made in response to Sen. Grassley.

ROBERTS: Well, I think it's very important to define these terms. Let's take the originalist approach. I do think that the framers' intent is the guiding principle that should apply.

However, you do need to be very careful and make sure that you're giving appropriate weight to the words that the framers used to embody their intent.

What gelled, and I have not doublechecked this, is that by my memory there is only one statement in the Constitution that speaks to intent.

"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Everything else is an imperitive, designed to implement that intent for the benefit of those considered citizens.

ROBERTS: I think of, in particular, the Fourth (sic) Amendment and the equal protection clause. There are some who may think they're being originalists who will tell you, "Well, the problem they were getting at were the rights of the newly freed slaves. And so that's all that the equal protection clause applies to."

But, in fact, they didn't write the equal protection clause in such narrow terms. They wrote more generally.

That may have been a particular problem motivating them, but they chose to use broader terms, and we should take them at their word, so that is perfectly appropriate to apply the equal protection clause to issues of gender and other types of discrimination beyond the racial discrimination that was obviously the driving force behind it.

That is an originalist view because you're looking at the original intent as expressed in the words that they chose. And their intent was to use broad language, not to use narrow language.

Okay, this isn't a constitutional point, but that they intended to use broad language actually isn't a good sign. The broader the language that comes out of a compromise, the greater the distance in the positions all parties still hold. The First Law of Negotiations is, discussion shall continue until the contract has sufficient ambiguity to allow all sides to claim victory.

We're dealing with law though, which means we actually have nothing to work with but words. A little knowledge of history, humans and the aforementioned First Law brings you to a wholly different understanding of the intent behind the word choice in the Constitution than a tabula rasa textual analysis approach does. Textual anaylsis is the currently accepted approach though, so broad language...language like

"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
will be taken to indicate broad applicability.

By this standard, the preamble is of critical importance. It directly states the intent of the authors of the document, the intent of the Constitution, the intended purpose of the government itself.

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Submitted by dwshelf on October 8, 2005 - 11:42pm.

but that they intended to use broad language actually isn't a good sign. The broader the language that comes out of a compromise, the greater the distance in the positions all parties still hold. The First Law of Negotiations is, discussion shall continue until the contract has sufficient ambiguity to allow all sides to claim victory.

That's certainly borne out in the interpretation of the 14th.

The preamble surely speaks to intent, but was not intended to overpower the actual constitution. 

Submitted by Prometheus 6 on October 9, 2005 - 1:27am.

Overpower?

Submitted by Prometheus 6 on October 9, 2005 - 3:12am.

Let's try it this way: where else in the Constitution is the intent of the document spelled out? And remember, as an originalist you can't even try to make the words say something they don't.

Submitted by dwshelf on October 9, 2005 - 4:33pm.

Maybe we don't need the constitution at all, we could just use the preamble as a path to an enlightened society?

But, um, it's kind of vague, don't you think? 

Submitted by Prometheus 6 on October 9, 2005 - 5:12pm.

Not vague at all. It's just broad language.

Answer the question, please. Where else in the Constitution is the intent of the document spelled out?

Submitted by dwshelf on October 9, 2005 - 5:41pm.

Where else in the Constitution is the intent of the document spelled out?

In one sense it's not, but in the common sense one can determine the intent in selecting each individual word. 

Submitted by Prometheus 6 on October 9, 2005 - 5:59pm.

So you're willing to impute meaning to the document that's not in the words.

Fascinating.

Having failed utterly to support the principles underlying originalism, I believe cnulan has provided you with a menu of significant topics to choose from. Maybe you'll do better there.

Submitted by cnulan on October 9, 2005 - 8:12pm.

Maybe you'll do better there.

You can stick a fork in him magne, he's done. By my estimation, reality evasion checkmate occurred a few moves back, right here to be exact.

From this point forward, DW's faux rationalism can be dismissed as the race theology it's always ever been.

All the kings horses, and all the kings men...,

Submitted by Prometheus 6 on October 9, 2005 - 8:23pm.

Best of all, it's visible across class boundaries.

Submitted by dwshelf on October 9, 2005 - 11:21pm.

So you're willing to impute meaning to the document that's not in the words.

No.

I'm agreeing that sometimes the intent is deliberately broad.

I'm agreeing that applying the intent into a modern context is a subjective action.

What I (and originalists) would not agree is that the words can be disregarded in favor of progress, or because we know the answer and it disagrees with the words. 

Submitted by Prometheus 6 on October 9, 2005 - 11:53pm.
What I (and originalists) would not agree is that the words can be disregarded in favor of progress, or because we know the answer and it disagrees with the words.

 

Yet you want to downplay the only statement of intent in the document.

Nope. Don't work. 

Submitted by Quaker in a Basement on October 10, 2005 - 6:10pm.

What I (and originalists) would not agree is that the words can be disregarded in favor of progress, or because we know the answer and it disagrees with the words.

Wow.

Musta taken a lot of straw to build that one, DW.

Nobody, but nobody, thinks a rational interpretation of the Constitution includes "knowing the answer and disagreeing with the words."

Cite me just one written opinion that says this.

Submitted by dwshelf on October 10, 2005 - 6:55pm.

Cite me just one written opinion that says this.

How about some familiar cases.

There are justices who believe that the 9th amendment means exactly nothing.

There are justices who belive that "regulation of interstate commerce" includes criminalization of marijuana which was never part of commerce and never left a state. 

There are justices who believe that the right answer to the abortion question is to make it unconstitutional to criminalize abortion.  the words to the constitution notwithstanding. 

Submitted by Prometheus 6 on October 10, 2005 - 7:03pm.
There are justices who believe that the right answer to the abortion question is to make it unconstitutional to criminalize abortion.

Comes under "secure the blessings of liberty." At least since women gained full citizenship.

Submitted by cnulan on October 10, 2005 - 7:08pm.

Is there a 28th amendment granting women full citizenship?

Submitted by Prometheus 6 on October 10, 2005 - 7:14pm.

Is there a 28th amendment granting women full citizenship?

Picky-picky...

Remember, we're talking law, not reality.

Submitted by Quaker in a Basement on October 10, 2005 - 10:06pm.

I notice you didn't even try to answer my question, DW. Can you show me even one written opinion in which the justices "know the answer but disagree with the words"?

Every one of the decisions you mention are rooted in a reading of the text.

Submitted by Quaker in a Basement on October 10, 2005 - 10:07pm.

There are justices who believe that the 9th amendment means exactly nothing.

The most notable of which are the darlings of the "originalist" crowd.

Submitted by dwshelf on October 10, 2005 - 11:10pm.

Every one of the decisions you mention are rooted in a reading of the text.

If one can read "regulation of interstate commerce" to underly the Raiche decision, one has ignored both "commerce" and "interstate".  It's not that they disclaim reading the text, it's that they feel entitled to expand "commerce" to cover personally grown and consumed marijuana, and that they expand "interstate" to cover activity which didn't even leave a singe house lot.

That's not "rooted in a reading of the text".  These guys read the words "commerce" and "interstate", and said to themselves "we know the answer here, regardless of what the reading might be". 

Submitted by Quaker in a Basement on October 11, 2005 - 4:05pm.

These guys read the words "commerce" and "interstate", and said to themselves "we know the answer here, regardless of what the reading might be".

Really, DW, you ought to try reading the actual opinion instead of relying on the prevailing propaganda.

The decision in Raich is indeed rooted in a reading of the commerce clause along with the attendant precedents. In short, a majority of six justices (including the "originalist" Scalia) found that controlling the market in controlled substances is a legitimate use of federal police power under the commerce clause. In keeping with a decision from 1942 they found that federal regulation of a market does not require separate handling of purely local activities.

Do you have any actual, you know, evidence that even one justice said "We know the answer"? Or are you just cooking that shit up on your own?

Submitted by dwshelf on October 11, 2005 - 4:59pm.

In short, a majority of six justices (including the "originalist" Scalia) found that controlling the market in controlled substances is a legitimate use of federal police power under the commerce clause.

Really QB, you ought to read the commerce clause rather than taking other people's word for what it says.  Here, I'll quote it for you:

[the United States Congress is empowered]

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

That's it.

The Roosevelt court was looking to grant more power than was traditional to the federal government, and first took creative license with that clause, which has over the next 60 years morphed into allowing pretty much any federal law that congress wants in opposition to the states.  It's that morphing which has no limit.

Scalia is the one I'm most displeased with in that decision. He knew better.  He knows full well that the commerce clause was originally nothing like how he read it.  And yet he voted to overturn in Raiche.  Because he knew marijuana was bad stuff, not because of what the constitution says.

Do you have any actual, you know, evidence that even one justice said "We know the answer"? Or are you just cooking that shit up on your own?

We can disagree QB, but let's do it without the twist. This saying thing isn't literal. 

Let me ask this: do you believe that Scalia read the commerce clause and based his decision on what he read?

Submitted by Quaker in a Basement on October 11, 2005 - 5:10pm.

This saying thing isn't literal.

If it's not literal, then you're guilty of the offense with which you charge others. Somehow, you use your powers of divination to guess--no, to know--the motives of the justices. When it comes to understanding the opinion, you're ignoring what's written and substituting your own judgment.

do you believe that Scalia read the commerce clause and based his decision on what he read?

Since he didn't write separately, I can only assume he agreed with the majority opinion, which says the federal government does not have an obligation to exempt purely local activities from its regulation of a national market.

Submitted by Quaker in a Basement on October 11, 2005 - 5:10pm.

And it's Raich, not Raiche.

Submitted by dwshelf on October 11, 2005 - 5:52pm.

And it's Raich, not Raiche.

Agreed.