Mr. Tuason sent the communications as far back as 20 years.
And until Uncle Clarence was threatened you thought it was okay?
Ohio: Man Accused of Threat to Justice
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
An Ohio man has been indicted on charges that he threatened to blow up the United States Supreme Court and attack well-known black men, including Justice Clarence Thomas , according to an indictment. The man, David Tuason, singled out black men known to affiliate with white women, well-known white women who had relationships with black men, and mixed-race children, federal authorities said. A spokeswoman for the Supreme Court, Kathy Arberg, confirmed that a threat had been made against Justice Thomas. A spokesman for the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Scott Wilson, said the threats began in Cleveland and branched out across the nation. He said that Mr. Tuason sent the communications as far back as 20 years. According to the indictment, Mr. Tuason sent a letter to the Supreme Court building in July 2003 in which he threatened to blow it up. The letter was addressed to an associate justice of the court referred to as “C.T.”
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Uncle Clarence
The irony of course being that a racist white man did not see Clarence Thomas as a friend to “white society”, or an Uncle Tom, as many racist blacks do. Too many people out there want to have their cake and eat it too. Can Thomas really be a traitor to his race, but still not fit into “white society?”
This always begs the question for me, why would a man spend his life championing positions that alienate him from all sides?
Shhhhh…..don’t tell anybody, it’s a secret!
(whispered) He actually doesn’t see himself through the prism of race. He is indeed truly colorblind, something we are all supposed to strive for, right? And because of that, he does silly things like take positions based on his conscience, and beliefs, and (uh oh, here comes the “V” word) values. Things that transcend race, ethnicity, religion, and nationality.
But hey, it is much more hip to call him an Uncle Tom.
He is indeed truly
No. That's wrong. It is NOT something we should all strive for. Among Black folks only fools strive for "colorblindness".
Besides, why should I care if Uncle Clarence can't tell red from green?
Nope. Just more accurate.
Among Black folks only fools
Among Black folks only fools strive for "colorblindness".
...because by doing that, they are ignoring the Eurocentric White power structure that is keeping them down? (Sorry, I am in the middle of Huey Long's biography).
...and using a pejorative 19th Centruy term to describe the totality of a modern day black man's life and career just seems....I don't know.....ignorant?
because by doing that, they
No.
You're using an awful lot of words that were coined well before the 19th centruy. Besides, I didn't call him an Uncle Tom. I called him Uncle Clarence, which I created only five years or so ago. Quite 20th century.
Now, you want to stop being an ass and actually SAY something? Because if you don't you're not going to last around here until the end of the day. I don't pretend to turn the other cheek when people set out to piss me off, as you have. I won't feel a twinge of guilt after terminating your account if you can't do better.
Okay.... You are using a
Okay....
You are using a reactionary term to label a man who has experienced as much, if not more racism and predjudice than the average minority living today. He has earned the right to be able to hold and defend views different that others of his race, without being dismissed as an Uncle Tom (Clarence).
How does it help the cause to denegrate this man who has accomplished so much, against such odds. The respectful thing to do would be to argue the points, instead of personal attacks.
I get the tone on the board. Your post are insightful, pithy, and cutting, but those of whom you don't agree are not. Perhaps you should tell me how to post and what subject to agree with you on.
I see the train coming. term away........! Don't forget to remove my comments after I am gone.
You are using a reactionary
That is true.
That is not. He has the right, but he didn't earn it. It's the nature of free will. And I have the right to dismiss him, just as you have the right to dismiss me. None of us are required to give half a damn about any specific person. Next you'll be claiming we have to respect Bush...
I, and most Black folks in ther USofA, dismiss Clarence Thomas as a sell-out (better than Uncle Tom?) Not a damn thing you can do about it, other than mope.
You should read before you post...there is not one regular here who I have not disagreed with, strongly. That's why I can ignore you. From your first comment your purpose was obvious, as is the fact that you know nothing about me or any position I've set forth.
If you're not smart enough to figure it out, we don't need you around here.
No, I'll just suspend your account. I want the comments to say so any new assholes can just be directed to the thread. Saves me a lot of time.
Actually, I don't think I've
Actually, I don't think I've disagreed with rikyrah yet.
The issue isn't about
The issue isn't about disagreement. It is about the quality of the approach that is brought to the disagreement. I was hoping that FADDT would make a cogent argument on behalf of Uncle Clarence but I was disappointed.
I am still waiting for an Uncle Clarence supporter to tell me why if race does not mean anything it still continues to have real world effects and consequences.
I was disappointed. I
I wasn't. He did exactly what I expected.
The degree of my
The degree of my disappointment was small, very small.
……and most Black folks
What's that got to do with
What's that got to do with Uncle Clarence selling out?
We have a definition of "sell-out."
We will never forgive him for throing his sister under the bus to get a job. We will never forgive him for undermining the EEOC. We will never forget that he, the only documentable case of a Black man getting hired over more qualified white folk due to his race, opposes affirmative action.
If you want to defend Uncle Clarence's honor, you have to speak to what he does. Try to explain why he is not a sell-out and you get to keep the vowels in the comment.
Well, I love my vowels, so I
Well, I love my vowels, so I will give it a shot....<g>.
As you hold all the cards here, I will ask for a favor.
I see the definition of a "sell-out" Since a man may acknowwledge some truths and deny others to varying degrees, throw me a bone here so I know where you stand, and if I even have a chance.
Which of the following are "sell-outs?"
Thomas Sowell
Louis Fahrakan
Andrew Young
Jesse Jackson
Booker T. Washington
Harold Ford Jr.
Colin Powell
Condi Rice
Bill Cosby
Will Smith
When you explain why
When you explain why Clarence is NOT a sellout, I will indulge you. IF you survive you will find I always keep my word on P6.
I labeled Uncle Clarence a Sellout because
of what he did to his sister.
HIS SISTER.
He sold his sister out to curry favor to his White patrons. He humiliated her to curry favor with his White patrons.
Now, that should have been a clue to Black folks ...anyone willing to sell out his sister, and it was a LIE too - he'd do it us Black folk in a minute. And he did. Hasn't thought twice about Black folk.
Okay....here goes (get the
Okay....here goes (get the tar and feathers ready).
Thomas grew up in the Deep South, where segregation was the norm. However, the older black men around him taught him that no matter what confronted him, he should never look at himself as a victim. This was an idea that defined how Thomas lived his life, as well as his views on the best way for his race to move forward and make a better life for themselves. He never has never denied the truth that there was, and continues to be racism in America. He just doesn’t care. He ignores it, not denies it. He doesn’t look for external reasons for why something or someone has gone against him, because ultimately, you never know if someone is a racist, or just an asshole, and really, what does it matter, the effect is the same.
And you can’t control external factors anyway, only internal ones. That is what he did. He didn’t turn a blind eye to prejudice; he turned his back to it like you turn your back to something not worthy of your attention. He took its power away. He eliminated its ability to control him or hold him back. And he took what anger or rage he might have had against those injustices and focused it inward, in a positive way, to work on the internal factors, which he could control.
The effect of this was to make him a better and stronger black man. To reach such high levels of excellence, that no man or institution, no matter how racist or prejudice, could deny him. He crushed the doors down, with each level he ascended through the judiciary, concluding with his historical appointment to the Supreme Court.
Along the way he never denied his race or his past. He may have not worn it on his sleeve, but he never hid it.
In his teaching and his rulings, he is trying to ask other black people follow his same path. He recounts in detail his deep disappointment at having his law degree devalued when it was found out that affirmative action helped him get admission to Yale. He knows how painful that was, and never wants another black man or woman to have to be in that same position. That is even more reason that he is a great man, and not a sellout. He knows that he made it in because of AA. He knows by ruling and speaking against it, he will be seen as someone who “got over” and then slammed the door shut. The EASY thing would have been to say or do nothing. But anyone who has children or has had to help someone in bad shape knows that you often have to be the bad guy for the greater good. You keep your child home from a party, even though you went to them when you were a kid. You forbid drinking and drugs for them, even though you might have tried them your self. And you are not a hypocrite or truth denier for doing it.
The hypocrite says “don’t do it,” or “you can’t have it,” because “I never did it,” or “I never had it.”
But the fearless and courageous man says, “Don’t do it,” or “you can’t have it,” because “I did it,” or “I had it,” and it was destructive to me, and I don’t want you to suffer the same way. That is what he has always done, acknowledging how he got there, but trying to show why that path is flawed.
He has a history of helping and mentoring not only black students, but students of all races, but those who want to follow the path he champions. He is resolute in that. A football coach would not spend time with players who didn’t follow his play book, especially if he truly believed in it, and it had produced consistent winners.
It is a love for his people that drives him. Ask yourself, why on Earth someone would actually choose the route he has. It makes no sense. There is no benefit to him. He is doing what he thinks will benefit his race, no matter what the personal cost to him.
It is tough, tough love. Not denial of a truth….
Sell-out
Lovely story. But he threw his sister under the bus to get the job.
And if he were as honorable as you claim he would have turned down the OBVIOUSLY affirmative action nomination to the Supreme Court. He's said he doesn't even like the job. That puts the lie to all those claims of honor and values.
Well...alright. So can I
Well...alright.
So can I have the vowels back?
"Try to explain why he is not a sell-out and you get to keep the vowels in the comment..."
You said just to "try to explain", not that I had to convince you.
Your answers
Thomas Sowell - Sellout
Louis Fahrakan - Opportunist
Andrew Young - I miss the old Andrew Young, the one that wasn't crazy
Jesse Jackson - Should be Chairman Emeritus, I'm very disappointed young folks don't acknowledge his work
Booker T. Washington - Not a sell-out, but not correct either
Harold Ford Jr. - DLC is sellout by definition, irrespective of race
Colin Powell - Okay until he sold out for Bush
Condi Rice - Loyal employee
Bill Cosby - Senile
Will Smith - Entertainer...not in thesame category
You get to keep the vowels
You get to keep the vowels in your on-topic post.
I'll take it. Thanks for
I'll take it.
Thanks for the answers.
A True Uncle Tom......Self-Proclaimed...!!!!
http://uncle_tom_rants.blogspot.com
...but probably really some white guy!
Let's not forget that in the
Let's not forget that in the first decision that Uncle Clarence participated in after joining the Supreme Court he signed a dissenting minority opinion arguing that a state prisoner in Mississippi had not been subjected to "cruel and unusual punishment" in violation of his 8th Amendment rights after the prisoner had been chained to a chair that was then tipped over and the prison guards proceeded to severely beat the prisoner.
Uncle Clarence argued that such treatment did not constitute "cruel and unusual behavior." Uncle Clarence is a piece of work.
Which of the following are
Which of the following are "sell-outs?"
Thomas Sowell -Sell Out
Louis Fahrakan - Opportunist
Andrew Young - Has sold his soul
Jesse Jackson - Hustler,but he's done well for his kids; can't blame him. Jesse's got a hustle, but I know so much of what he did on the ground in Chicago, that I'll always appreciate him what he did through his 1988 run.
Booker T. Washington - Visionary
Harold Ford Jr.- Sell out. Lied on his GRANDMAMA....
Colin Powell - I still like him.
Condi Rice - Respect the intellect. Despise what she did with it. The difference between Condi and Uncle Clarence is...
In a room full of 100 people, there are MAYBE - TWO- that are smarter than Condi. Uncle Clarence doesn't have that issue. He's so woefully mediocre, it's pathetic. The crime with him wasn't just that he was unqualified...he was unqualified by BLACK REPUBLICAN STANDARDS. There was a list of HIGHLY QUALIFIED BLACK REPUBLICAN JURISTS that would eat him mentally for breakfast that didn't get it because they didn't brownnose and kiss ass like Uncle Clarence.
Bill Cosby - Visionary
Will Smith - Actor
Actual post
Which of the following are "sell-outs?"
Thomas Sowell -Sell Out
Louis Fahrakan - Opportunist
Andrew Young - Has sold his soul
Jesse Jackson - Hustler,but he's done well for his kids; can't blame him. Jesse's got a hustle, but I know so much of what he did on the ground in Chicago, that I'll always appreciate him what he did through his 1988 run.
Booker T. Washington - Visionary ( don't you ever put Uncle Clarence in the category of Booker T. Booker T worked FOR his people...he would have looked at Uncle Clarence like the sellout he is. He would have been appalled by him.)
Harold Ford Jr.- Sell out. Lied on his GRANDMAMA....
Colin Powell - I still like him.
Condi Rice - Respect the intellect. Despise what she did with it. The difference between Condi and Uncle Clarence is...
In a room full of 100 people, there are MAYBE - TWO- that are smarter than Condi. Uncle Clarence doesn't have that issue. He's so woefully mediocre, it's pathetic. The crime with him wasn't just that he was unqualified...he was unqualified by BLACK REPUBLICAN STANDARDS. There was a list of HIGHLY QUALIFIED BLACK REPUBLICAN JURISTS that would eat him mentally for breakfast that didn't get it because they didn't brownnose and kiss ass like Uncle Clarence.
Bill Cosby - Visionary. I'm not mad at what he's saying. For me, with the money Cosby's given to Black folk for decades, he can say what he wants to say.
Will Smith - Actor
Why on earth, indeed. . .
“Ask yourself, why on Earth someone would actually choose the route he has…”
(I’ve really tried on occasion to come to some kind of understanding of that rational…)
I think you’re right about his love for his people, but I believe it’s past tense. I believe it was very deep, once upon a time. It was so deep that when he found it not reciprocal (Why do I not see the race rise as I?) He spurned it, to disassociate himself from the pain of his perception of his rejected ideals. If his own people couldn’t understand him, what was the point? What did he have left to lose?
Rationalizing as such, he consciously made the choice to detach himself from his race and having done so, then proceeded to totally detach himself from his known self in his psyche.
I’ve seen pictures of Clarence Thomas dressed in full Black Panther regalia in his youth. He had an extremely militant viewpoint once upon a time. There’s no way he could totally disaffected by racism, in spite of his dogged determination to excel.
It’s one thing not to care about personal attacks upon your person as an individual so as to not empower it, but as a person of color, you cannot turn a blind eye or not feel a sense of moral outrage when the attack is generalized to your race. You may not be able to change the perception, but, you have a moral obligation to identify it for what it is.
(There is a distinct difference between “You,” “Your mother” and “You people”)
As a person of color, if you’re in conversation with an individual and you hear:
“If all black people worked as hard as you, they wouldn’t have any problems!”
You can respond:
A. “You’re absolutely right!”
B. “What do you mean when say ALL?”
C. “You’re kidding me, right?”
(Or, depending on the who, what, when, where and why of it all, the response could end up being non-verbal and law enforcement agents might very well end up getting involved.)
My theory is that Clarence Thomas would undoubtedly choose ‘A’ every time, because he would choose to ignore the inherent racism of the comment. Even if it were remotely possible that the observation may not have been spoken with any genuine ill intent, by co-signing without any kind of challenge to correct, either overtly or with a modicum of decorum, it none the less helps to bolster the myth that the predominance of a people are pre-disposed to an inferior work ethic.
This doesn’t make him a better man, this makes him a mercenary and raises his personal stock exclusive to those circles.
By doing so, he dismisses and devalues the mentors of his youth, because not every child is going to be so fortunate as to have the type of influences to help them navigate the world and questions of race successfully.
As far as AA = sex, drugs and Rock & Roll, it would seem to be the same as saying:
“Don’t take out a loan to buy a home, you end up paying interest. Save up and buy it out right. I don’t want to see you end up paying more than you should!”
(…I’m sure it could be said it’s not the same argument, but in the end I think both arguments are equally weak!)
How about just advising to appreciate how unique the source of the opportunity is and to use it to your best discretion and advantage?
There’s a lot to be said for mentoring those who already show all of the signs of being on the road to success, but personally, I find it far more impressive to see someone renovate and abandoned home and make it look good as new, if not better, as opposed to adding a three car garage to a brand new home that’s already been built.
(…NOTE:Dexter Manley of the Washington Redskins couldn’t read, for heaven’s sake! So I don’t know that the playbook analogy works either!)
I think the closest spots analogy that could be used would be that he’s the Vince Carter of the Supreme Court. Shows up every now and then, dazzles a little bit and then disappears. Ultimately, the team does very little, but he will still make the nightly highlight reels.
The casual fan will marvel, but a true fan knows he's not a team player!
I think you’re right about
You guys are so gullible, it's sad.
Pure instinct suggests I let you know my gut connects the two of you, and if you try to take over the joint you will get the same treatment as those who tried in the past.
LATER: For the record, they weren't all Conservatives, either.
Cosby reminds me of my
Cosby reminds me of my father, in that my father had the same personality change as Cosby when he started suffering from dementia.
Have you read Come On People? It's standard pedagogy, with enough rants inside to make white folks thing he's directly addressing Black ills. His audience isn't the people who have been left out.
I don't see 'visionary.' I see error in his book, and yes, a touch of dementia in his person.
Thomas just sees things
Thomas just sees things different and makes the hard decisions to try and. They are not always "black and white" decisions (no pun intended), and the sublties get lost in headlines and summarys. The only thing more painful the the dismissal of the man, is the attitude that he not just wrong, but evil (or bad, or ignorant, or what ever word you want). He is coming at the problem in a different way, that may not be understood for generations.
Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted.
-MLK
...try and make a
...try and make a difference.
The only thing more painful
Tough titty.
He's not just wrong, he's evil, bad...but not ignorant. He chose consciously, did and supported evil things to get his lifetime sinecure. And if it hurts his feeling to be seen that way, it makes me happy. He's still getting paid, which was his concern, so he should just suck it up and stop beefing.
Well, if your theory is
Well, if your theory is correct, that that is a sad commentary on the state of the black community, because it seems his malady is contagious. Look at the intelligent and educated prominent blacks from my list (something you can't argue even if you disagree with them). Most of them, according the feedback given, have the same disease that Thomas does.
Young blacks who start off true to the cause, but somewhere along the way make a CONSCIOUS decision to be a "sell-out", or become opportunists. It does not bode well for blacks, becuase in addition to the traditional external forces they have to battle, there is a cancer within, that specifically afflicts those who are most needed...the intelligent and educated.
I am sure I could have listed 100 others off the top of my head that would be labeled "sell-outs." All equally intelligent and educated. Apparently only being an actor or musician provides some sort of "free pass" in that area.
The white community (whatever that is) does not seem to have sell-outs, as I have never heard that term used in all my years, in that context, so the concept is obviously somewhat foreign to me.
Who are some well known, intelligent, educated, and successful black figures that are NOT considered sell-outs?
For the record: I’m
For the record:
I’m sorry, Clarence Thomas will never make my list of personal heroes. There is nothing to admire.
For whatever I have, or may gain in life, I fully understand that it all starts with those black people who fought and sacrificed on my behalf. I’ve taken advantage of what opportunities have been available, but what of those who are not even close to having an understanding of what the opportunity is? What do you say? Shame on their parents? You can’t just close the door and say shame on them.
The lesson learned is you ALWAYS have to reach back. Whatever sacrifices you make will always pale in comparison to those that gave up their lives for you.
Some people don’t even have an understanding of how badly they need help. You don’t just brand ‘idiot’ on their foreheads and move on.
That’s the true shame of America, that somehow slavery is this sad unfortunate chapter in history, but we’ve moved on now and all has been forgiven.
I have no more to say about this man.
Sorry FT, I appreciate your
Sorry FT,
I appreciate your responses, but your comment reflects a lack of perspective and context....
(Slavery) is the shame of MANKIND......
Slavery has always been universal, taking place in Asia, Europe, and Africa long before America was even a glimmer in its founders eyes.
The myopic view that America was the vanguard in slavery is not only wrong, but dangerous. The vast majority of slaves went to the Middle East, not America. America was not even the largest recipient of slaves in the Western Hemisphere, with Brazil holding that title.
Slavery was the same shame that America held with the world. But the true pride and uniqueness of this country is that it was the first major power that went to war with itself to end slavery.
Yes, I know there is probably a thread on this board where someone has given a hundred reasons why the Civil War was really based on other, more insidious, reasons, and the end of slavery was just a byproduct. But almost all normative historians, black or non-black, American or not, have killed that myth.
It is a problem with perspective, looking at the worst, fixating on it, and refusing to let it go. Then using it to justify lack of progress. It goes to my Thomas argument. You choose what you take with you and how you react to it.
If your car gets hit, you have a choice on how to react. You can say, "that bastard. My car is ruined, I won't get to my job, and it is going to cost me money to fix. This is bullshit, everything happened to me". Or you can say, "this sucks, but thank God I didn't get hurt. I have insurance, and this too will pass."
It is a choice you make, in order to take the power back and self-determine.
Your choice to ONLY view slavery as a uniquely American shame, and not to focus on the battle to end it is a mistake. The refusal to reconcile it and move forward is deadly, and will always be the figurative ball-and-chain around the ankle of those that choose to think that way.
Thomas Sowell - Sell
Thomas Sowell - Sell Out.
Louis Farrakhan - Conman and religious hack.
Andrew Young - Opportunist and shill for corporate interests.
Jesse Jackson - A promising career that detoured into a self-promoting, self-serving hustle.
Booker T. Washington - his Atlanta Compromise speech remains one of the most ignoble moments in the black struggle.
Harold Ford Jr. - Sell out.
Colin Powell - War criminal and abettor of war criminals going all the way back to his relationship in the 1960s with Frank Carlucci (Chairman Emeritus, the Carlyle Group, Former U.S. Secretary of Defense and Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs--this association includes the assassination of Patrice Lumumba in the Congo). As a 31 year old Army Major, Powell was also involved in whitewashing the My Lai massacre in Vietnam. Powell is far more dangerous and nefarious than any of the others on this list. Beneath the carefully cultivated avuncular facade resides a homicidal monster.
Condi Rice - War criminal and the most incompetent cabinet official in modern history.
Bill Cosby - Philantropist succumbing to the ravages of aging.
Will Smith - Makes entertaining films.
While chairboy of the eeoc,
While chairboy of the eeoc, Thom-ass Clarence refused to investigate the vast majority of employment discrimination cases filed with the commission. That's why G. Bush nominated him to the court. They knew he would vote to preserve the status quo of white supremacy, which has been the principal task of the Supreme (supremacist) Court since the founding of the nation (Dred Scot, Plessy v. Ferguson, etc.). Thom-ass has never failed to keep his bargain with the devil.
Well, if your theory is
The malady of being unqualified is contageous? The malady of being a shill for a party that is actively hostile to all your relatives is contageous?
That's entirely possible. Stay away from me.
Of course, the real reason
Of course, the real reason so many "intelligent educated" folk sell out is because it is profitable, and in the USofA, profit is Lord. But it IS a buyer's market, so aspiring sellouts (say, Sowell) must get trained before they are bought. Kind of like how slaves were imported to the Carribean to be broken before being bought by merchants in the Confederacy.
Colin Powell - War criminal
I may have to yield that point. Being a good soldier only covers your ass so much.
Kind of like how slaves were
Kind of like how slaves were imported to the Carribean to be broken before being bought by merchants in the Confederacy....
...or from Zanzibar before being bought by merchants in Persia.
He recounts in detail his
"He recounts in detail his deep disappointment at having his law degree devalued when it was found out that affirmative action helped him get admission to Yale."
This is an example of extreme confusion and a lack of exposure to the world on his part. Affirmative action was designed, in part, to assist qualified people like Uncle Clarence to get into universities like Yale. Does he really believe that he was not qualified to attend Yale? Does he really believe that others who were admitted, for example, legacy applicants were all qualified or more qualified than he was.
In any case, affirmative action may have gotten him into the door but it damn sure didn't keep him at Yale if he couldn't do the work. Affirmative action didn't help him pass the "Baby Bar" after his first year, either.
Seems to me that Uncle Clarence could have benefited from some therapy to discuss and understand his feelings of inferiority and some reading about the hidden and damaging role of class in America. He could still use the therapy because black folk and affirmative action are not his enemies.
...or from Zanzibar before
Glad you agree. Surprised you'd think I'd be troubled by physical fact, but you've only been around a day or so.
I think you misunderstood
I think you misunderstood this point PT. I don't know if you have read his book, but he of course felt that he was qualified to attend Yale, etc....
His disappointment wasn't in himself, but in the attitude of others. Those he was interviewing with for jobs, felt his degree was not as "valid" as others, because he had been helped into Yale via AA. He believed he was as good, if not better than anyone else, but the attitude of others was holding him back.
He felt that any minority that followed after him would always be saddled with that burden. Thus his opposition to it, even though it helped him. The concept being that it would drop the "axe" so to speak on the groups who would immediately benefit from it, but in the long run, would encourage raising the level of education by all minorities in order to get into a Yale, and most importantly, would never again give fuel to racists in society to denigrate minorities by saying they got "special help" or a "handout" in order to get their degree, position, job....etc.
Thomas perhaps made a mistake in being too far ahead of his time. AA with the concept that qualified or maybe even slightly less than qualified minorities were not getting into colleges because of racial blacklisting is a good and necessary thing. However, AA with the concept of just getting minorities into college based on some formula or population representation or such, regardless of qualifications, is flawed.
Thomas perhaps acted and spoke to early with the idea of the later, when the former was still in place. However as restrictions were dropped, and access to higher education became broadly accessible to all, AA became a long term liability to the qualified minority, though a short term benefit.
Glad you agree. Surprised
Glad you agree. Surprised you'd think I'd be troubled by physical fact, but you've only been around a day or so......
...granted, there is so much content here, and I can only read so fast. Make's me wish you had FAQ or mission statement somewhere on the site, outlining your positions, and what you hope to accomplish with this site. I suppose you "Best of" section cover all this, and I am working my way through it.
I have no doubt you respect facts, though I imagine you place a lot of weight into interpreting "why" the facts are what they are. That is where disagreement can come up.
I am troubled only by the fact that if I was to arrive from Mars and only read this blog, I would assume that slavery was a uniquely American phenomenon. And would never understand the key role America played in ending it for good.
I don't think I
I don't think I misunderstood Uncle Clarence's point at all. I don't understand how and why the process through which Uncle Clarence was admitted to Yale Law School would have come up during job interviews. His diploma is not stamped with the words "Admitted Through Affirmative Action." How would a recruiter or interviewer acquire this information except from Uncle Clarence? Did the Career Development Office introduce him to potential employers as "our little affirmative action baby"?
Uncle Clarence was not ahead of his time. He hankers for a period of time that has never existed in America especially for African Americans. Never.
His disappointment wasn't in
He screwed up, then.
Affirmative Action was intended to teach white people how to hire fairly. He, selfishly, thought it was all about him. Racism simply isn't about the qualities of the one being discriminated against. It's about the blindness of the bigot, and THAT is what was to be addressed, before the focus was turned, as usual, to the "flaws" of the underclass as an excuse to ignore all Black folks.
I am troubled only by the
I am disturbed by your coming from Mars.
My initial response is hey, try giving your opinion directly rather than looking for some angle. But there IS a mission statement on the main page of the blog. In the header. Only takes three lines.
"...uniquely American
"...uniquely American phenomenon."
The way that slavery was instituted and practiced in America was certainly unique.
I have a better alien from outer space question: Why would a country that was founded on the Rights of Man and other democratic principles enshrine the practice of slavery into its founding documents?
"I am troubled only by the
"I am troubled only by the fact that if I was to arrive from Mars and only read this blog, I would assume that slavery was a uniquely American phenomenon. And would never understand the key role America played in ending it for good."
You need to read deeper into P6 if that's the impression you have gotten thus far. Also, I think you've greatly overstated the "key role" America played in ending slavery. Check out the link below for a brief description about a new book, "Slavery By Another Name," that documents how slavery was continued under various legal and illegal means in the U.S. until the 1940s.
http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780385506250
Neoslavery actually continues to this day in the prison industrial complex. Read this article for an excellent analysis of the relationship between slavery and mass incarceration.
http://www.newleftreview.org/?view=2367
In the header. Only takes
In the header. Only takes three lines....
I assume you are refering to..
Don't lie on Black people
Don't lie about Black people
Don't lie to Black people
I am guessing at that, because for some reason I can't see it while browsing from my PC. I remember seeing it at one point, perhapds while I was browsing from my Treo. Strange!
Anyway, as a mission statement, it is a bit broad.
Anyway, as a mission
That's why I cover so much stuff.
It is very simple PT..... It
It is very simple PT.....
It was a well known fact at the time that Yale had an Affirmative Action program in place. It was very public about it, and received much media attention. It would be a fairly logical conclusion at the time that Thomas benefited from it.
Not to mention that the level of jobs he was applying for, you don't think they would have fully vetted all his college records, not only including classes taken and grades, but admission applications and such. Any high powered law firm would insist on those records being made available by consent of the applicant. And even if they did not consent, you don't think they could easily find out about it in other ways. Come on', what about the "Ol Boy" network. A Yale alumnus in the firm makes a quick call to a "friend" at Yale.....that would seem to be obvious.
Oh and don't forget, why wouldn't they just ask him...."were you part of the Affirmative Action program at Yale?" If don't think there was any law against asking that, and what red-blooded racist would refrain from that question.
I have a better alien from
I have a better alien from outer space question: Why would a country that was founded on the Rights of Man and other democratic principles enshrine the practice of slavery into its founding documents?
....because men are flawed. All men. The founders of America. The African and Muslim slave traders who did if for 1000 years before America was founded, and 50 years after America abolished it......
Like I said before, America wasn't even the biggest player in the Western Hemisphere.
You indicte America for slavery, but not the rest of the world. And you dismiss America for it's huge role in ending modern slavery.....
Seems like Al Gore's dismissal of his critics when they show recent tempurature actually droping. He says they just don't understand the complexities of global warming.
So when the temp goes up....global warming.
When it goes down....well that is global warming to.
Now way to win.
Where is the thread on this blog entitled...
How America has benefited mankind....
Slavery continued LEGALLY in
Slavery continued LEGALLY in Ethiopia until 1942. Point me to the section here that bashes Ethiopia for that.
Neoslavery......let me get back to you on that.
Slavery is still going on in
Slavery is still going on in Mauretania and the Sudan, and neoslavery is alive and well in other African nations. We have discussed these things in P6. I have posted here on a number of occasions about the Arab slave trade in Africa. You should be careful before you assert your own suppositions as facts.
It is strange that you would
It is strange that you would site a study by a white European, as basis for your argument. Somehow if he had a study entitled, "The Inner Black Conflict Limits Chances Of Success" I would imagine he would have been dismissed as not having the background to comment on a black issue.
The notion that prison is being used as a de facto slavery, or to produce the same effect of slavery...I mean where to I go with that. The concept baiscally revolves around the worn out concept of historical programming having ultimate power over present day freedom of choice and self determination.
Terms such as "hyperghetto," "neoslavery," and the fact that the author is affiliated with the "Center for Urban Ethnography" should tell you that his "ivory tower" academic view, has little or no relation to what is actually happening in the real world.
He sees himself as vessel for "white guilt", and his studies reflect that trait.
great, then you should be
great, then you should be able to give me the link to those threads. I am sure they will be as volumous as the threads on America's role in slavery.
Affirmative Action was
Affirmative Action was intended to teach white people how to hire fairly.....
Fairly being best qualified, regardless of race, right?
Because we all know you can never "teach" someone who is racist to hire minorities. You can only "force" them to do that.
Slavery continued LEGALLY in
Let me ask you: why is it necessary to indict another country when my problems are here?
Because we all know you can
I got no problem with that. You got a problem with that? Besides
I indict America for its Jim Crow and the ongoing racism. I have no need to root around the past to find all manner of ills.
Where is the thread on this
That's someone else's job. As long as I don't dispute the benefit, you should not dispute the harm. Both are true.
Slavery is still going on in
"Terms such as
"Terms such as "hyperghetto," "neoslavery," and the fact that the author is affiliated with the "Center for Urban Ethnography" should tell you that his "ivory tower" academic view, has little or no relation to what is actually happening in the real world."
Perhaps I should have suggested an article for you written in monosyllables with crayon.
Your dismissal of the work of an important scholar of the history of the criminal justice system because of the technical terms he uses and his institutional affiliation is your loss not mine. I won't even bother to tell you how stupid you are for discounting his research because he is a "white European." But thank you for making it clear how uninformed, anti-intellectual and cognitively challenged you are. Next time I won't mistake you for someone worthy of conversation.
"great, then you should be
"great, then you should be able to give me the link to those threads. I am sure they will be as volumous as the threads on America's role in slavery."
They're not written in crayon, and they cite the work of non-blacks. Sorry.
You're off topic AND insulting
Yes I am getting tired of you.
I am not "blacks in America." And I write about what I am concerned with.
Yes. I want all the attention possible focused on our domestic issues because I live here. You would have me squirt water on the house next door while standing inmy own burning home? Only an ass woiuld do that.
Or, as the Buddha said, "To untie another you must first untie yourself."
How are his efforts working?
Thought so.
Let me ask you: why is it
Let me ask you: why is it necessary to indict another country when my problems are here?
(Emphasis above is mine).
None of us are required to give half a damn about any specific person...
(From your previous comment)
My point......
You are trying to help the "black cause" as if it is a monolithic group that all rises. You ignore not only the history of the US, but the history of the world, and most importantly, the nature of man.
That nature is that every man makes his own fate. You can't take whole groups up with you. Not all whites, nor Asian, no Hispanics....you get the point.
The cream of the crop will move up, meaning those with the will, desire, and dedication to moving up. History is littered with failed concepts of trying to move whole groups (Communism, Socialism), along with failures of trying to keep a few elite at the top (Monarchy, etc).
Human condition and success is a pyramid. The vast bottom is the lowest socio economic group, no matter what color. The top are the best off (again, whatever race). The goal of a free, democratic society is to make sure that everyone has the equal opportunity to rise from the base as high as their abilities will take them to the top.
NOT TO BRING THE WHOLE BASE UP TO THE TOP.
This is because it is not possible, neither economically, nor behaviorally. It is not a race, religious, or nationality issue, it is an issue wired into the DNA of mankind that will never change. Evidenced by the fact that the only times it has ever tried to be changed, involved extremely totalitarian means...i.e. Communism, Fascism, Socialism, and yes slavery.
The flaw in the current black thinking is that they should rise as a group. This is why when those in the group do rise individually; they are seen as "sell-outs"
Funny, they don't have those terms in Korean, Vietnamese, Japanese, Chinese, Irish, Italian, Scandinavian, and most other groups who have found homes in America. When someone "makes" it, they are celebrated. And those groups don't feel that it is owed to the whole group that they rise in the pyramid.
I mean can you imagine a million Korean man march!
No doubt that the playing field has not been fair for black in the past on this account. But it has made in the last 100, 50, or even 20 years are massive.
Your comments show that you understand that at the end of the day, it is about the individual.
hey...what happend to my
hey...what happend to my vowels.....?
LOL!
Your comments show that you
But at the beginning of the day, we're living in conditions established collectively, conditions we do not implement.
And one more insult and you da fuk outta here.
I don't get it, you take a
I don't get it, you take a shot at my intelligence with the "crayon" remark, becuase I disagree. Even though I made no personal attack on you.
Then you twist my point. Which was not that I dismissed him beause he is a white European (I dismiss him becuase what he say's does not jive with the real world), but that any study that challeges the belif that black societys plight is more of an internal issue than extenal, made by a white European, would be dismissed. But when it support your view, well then he is a great scholar.
I am pointing out inconsistnecy, which you well knew.
Then you twist my
Probably because you made it up. You can't say anything about anyone here's reactions.
Before the three line mission statement, what used to be in that spot was "Do not assume that because I agree with your conclusion that our reasoning is the same." That holds for almost everyone here. You would be wise not to assume.
You are trying to help the
No, I just understand that all humans benefit or receive harm from the same sorts of things.
Well at least we all agree
Well at least we all agree that Will Smith is a good actor. Though "I Am Legend" could have been better.
I will take my leave now, as I am pretty sure I will say something eventually that will get me termed anyway.
Thanks for the discourse, I would share a drink with any of you.
Not to mention that the
"Not to mention that the level of jobs he was applying for, you don't think they would have fully vetted all his college records, not only including classes taken and grades, but admission applications and such."
Prospective employers, even when Uncle Clarence mustered out of Yale Law School, only wanted an applicant's grade point average and area of concentration. No prospective employers would have asked Uncle Clarence for his application documents. Not a one. White shoe law firms might have presumed that Uncle Clarence was an affirmative action admission but the only person who could have signed-off on providing an employer with that sort of information was Uncle Clarence himself.
If he did agree to provide a prospective employer with that kind of information, then it reveals, as I wrote upthread, his lack of sophistication about the world and his isolation from other blacks. Older black attorneys would have pulled his coat. I think Uncle Clarence's story is completely jive.
Don't kid yourself PT.
Don't kid yourself PT. Those blue blooded firms whose doors he was knocking on know EVERYTHING they want to about ANYBODY they want to. These are the power merchants of the system. They know how to protect their power and have the infrastructure in place to do it. If not a call to a fellow Yallie, then a PI, or a sly bribe to the right person. They woulld never, NEVER let give someone the keys to the kingdom, and back then, especially a black man, unless they knew everything about him, from the people he associates with, the places he frequents, even the type of toohhpaste he uses.
Don't kid yourself PT.
Don't kid yourself PT. Those blue blooded firms whose doors he was knocking on know EVERYTHING they want to about ANYBODY they want to.
I am an eternally realistic person. I don't kid myself. I never denied the possibility of these firms using some back channels to ferret out any information they wanted about Uncle Clarence. I am arguing, however, that his story sounds suspect because it is premised on the supposition that if he or another black Yale Law School graduate had not been admitted to the school under its affirmative action program then these white shoe laws firms would have readily clasped them to their bosoms and handed them the keys to the kingdom.
The reality is that these firms did not hire blacks no matter how blacks got into Yale Law School or how well blacks did once they were admitted to Yale. In short, it wasn't affirmative action that prevented Uncle Clarence from becoming a corporate Wall Street lawyer. All things being equal, a law degree from Yale is a law degree from Yale. The folks who own and run these law firms are not ignorant of this fact because more than a few of them attended Yale Law School.
Well said..... But I don't
Well said.....
But I don't think Thomas was making the case that a non-AA black would have been readily hired, but that AA could always be the excuse a firm could use for not hiring a black.
Your last paragraph is a little confusing because it seems to be talking about two different times frames at the same time, and something that comes up far too much on this board.
Your point that "all things being equal, a degree from Yale, is a degree from Yale...implies..."unless you are black." That may have been true BACK THEN. But Thomas was hired by someone. And can you really say that a black Yale law grad faces those same issues today...or should I say the same level.
The only color coprorations throughout the world care about today is green.
For full disclosure.....my
For full disclosure.....my mia culpa.
http://addtrader.wordpress.com/2008/04/11/race-and-clarence-thomas/#comment-1950
"...but that AA could always
"...but that AA could always be the excuse a firm could use for not hiring a black."
Yes, and these firms could have refused to hire black lawyers because they were not wearing the right "rep" tie or had opted for a pair of cordovan Bostonians instead of a pair of capped toed black Allen Edmonds bluchers. It doesn't matter, bro, what reasons they wanted to give for not hiring Uncle Clarence and anybody who looked like him. If you can't see that telling him directly or leading him to believe that the reason was because he had been admitted to Yale Law School under the affirmative action program was simply their way of wounding, disempowering and devaluing his diploma then I don't know what more I can offer.
BTW, I am so tired of reading and hearing black people say that the only color these corporations care about is GREEN. If that is true then many, many more of you would be in the senior upper tier management of Fortune 1,000 companies here and abroad. It has never been simply about earning money for these folks. There is a vast and extensive web of relationships that are supported and connected to these jobs. The assessment for one's fitness to be in these circles is never based solely on one's ability to make money.
"The assessment for one's
"The assessment for one's fitness to be in these circles is never based solely on one's ability to make money. "
Required, but not sufficient.
PT.... Of course there
PT....
Of course there aren't more blacks in upper management in Fortune 500 companies, becuase white men have about a about a 450 year headstart on them (roughly 1492 to the late 1960's).
Your emphasiis on the absolute number is flawed. More important is the trend, and the slope of that trend. The progress in black rights and equality from 1492 to now has been like Moore's Law. Which is why the constant refrence to the past is dangerous because opportunist can use it as an excuse instead of a frame of refrence.
You tell a child that America has historically been against him, and still is, then he will say, "what's the point" and grow up with anger and distrust. You tell him that America has historically been against him, like most major civilizations have benn against their minorities, but that things have changed by leaps and bounds, and that he has as much right, and opportunity to be what he wants NOW, then he can have a dream.
If Obama had been told the former, he would not soon be the first black President of the United States of America
I get it now...The mission
I get in now...
The mission statement is not visible when you are logged in...
D'oh!
You tell a child that
Your ability to underestimate us is astounding.
I tell you what. Why don't you stop telling us how Black people feel and how Black people will respond. Or is your comment limited to the people YOU know?
The mission statement is not
The mission statement is only visible on the front page.
The comment is to ANY child,
The comment is to ANY child, black or not.
What is more powerful to a child of ANY color than the influence of their parents, family, and society?
At 40 years old I still find myself acting in ways not becuase I believe them myself, but becuase it was something from my family of origin.
Same way in which a white kid who is told people of color are no good by his parents, most likely will be a racist. You burden a child, ANY child, with negativity and they become negative and don't dream for better.
Your ability to
Your ability to underestimate us is astounding.
(Emphasis is mine).
I don't underestimate any group, becuase I don't view people as groups, but as individuals. When I hired people for my company I didn't judge their group, I judged the individual man or woman in front of me. I hired them on their qualifications, because the best qualified produced the best color......green.
The green that I could then use to have a better life for myself and my family, and use the rest for the causes I believe in.
The comment is to ANY child,
Look at all the intelligent, educated Black folks in the country who are older than 40 years old. Every last one of us grew up certain that America has historically been against us, and still is. We just decided to defeat that judgement.
Imagine you hear peals of laughter. I'd quote counter-examples from your own posts but I devoweled them.
You ever opine on what America does? Or Iraq? Or a corporation, the Boy Scouts, your favorite sports team? You deal in collectives every damn day. So spare me.
"Of course there aren't
"Of course there aren't more blacks in upper management in Fortune 500 companies, becuase white men have about a about a 450 year headstart on them (roughly 1492 to the late 1960's)."
So how do you account for the headstart, bro?
Your emphasiis on the absolute number is flawed. More important is the trend, and the slope of that trend. The progress in black rights and equality from 1492 to now has been like Moore's Law. Which is why the constant refrence to the past is dangerous because opportunist can use it as an excuse instead of a frame of refrence.
I am not making an argument based on a mythical absolute or proportional number. I think you are misapplying Moore's Law here. In fact, it has no validity in this discussion. I am not opposed, in principle, to opportunists. I am opposed to both right and left opportunists.
You tell a child that America has historically been against him, and still is, then he will say, "what's the point" and grow up with anger and distrust.
A child that exists solely as an abstraction such as you describe might grow up that way. I would be laboring under an insufficiency of data to argue one way or another in that case. There are millions of black people in this country who hold this view and they are not in any danger of becoming wards of the state or sociopaths.
You tell him that America has historically been against him, like most major civilizations have benn against their minorities, but that things have changed by leaps and bounds, and that he has as much right, and opportunity to be what he wants NOW, then he can have a dream.
Black folks have never suffered from a lack of dreams or a lack of accomplishments. They have suffered (and continue to suffer) from a lack of recognition of their accomplishments as Albert Murray has pointed out.
If Obama had been told the former, he would not soon be the first black President of the United States of America.
You really don't understand folks on this list at all.
“Black folks have never
“Black folks have never suffered from a lack of dreams or a lack of accomplishments. They have suffered (and continue to suffer) from a lack of recognition of their accomplishments as Albert Murray has pointed out.”………
And Murray took blacks to task for that as much as any group, for their historical belief in white superiority. He also knew that any group, when they sensed their own power and opportunity, after being oppressed for so long, would swing from one extreme to another. Belief in white superiority, straight to vilification of white society, which is why he ridiculed black radicalism. When (or if) the pendulum swings back to the middle, which would be ignoring white society, the progress will be complete. He also never pretended that greater recognition of black’s accomplishments would have had any tangible effect.
“You really don't understand folks on this list at all.”……..
Next to charging someone with being “racist”, this is the biggest cop-out of all, and basically shuts down dialogue. I don’t understand my wife, but I still work to understand her, and manage to live a happy, productive life with her.
I do understand people, and despite the attempts to prove otherwise on this list, blacks and whites have more in common, than they do differences, something Murray firmly believes as well. This is because they are not monolithic groups, but are made up of individuals, with the same hopes, dreams, and fears, despite their different historical backgrounds. Although Murray would probably argue it was because of their shared and unique America history that they have more in common.
You don't understand Albert
You don't understand Albert Murray either. And you continue to underestimate and misunderstand folks on this list as well.
Great, so instead of
Great, so instead of continuing to tell me what I don't understand, why don't you drop the cryptic posts and just lay out what you want to happen in this country, from RIGHT NOW, going forward.
...and be specific.
I don't suffer fools gladly
This is why I called bullshit over at your site when you said
I'm suspending your account because I won't have time to devowel you while I'm gone. Like I told you there, I don't care about what's in your heart, I care about the behavior I see...and your claim of innocent defense of an honorable Uncle Clarence is put to the the lie by your rooting around, demands for coverage of the topics YOU think should be important and other bullshit.
Internet arguments NEVER have to be settled by reason and you obviously aren't looking for closure, so I'm closing it now.
Oh, and when I get back, we
Oh, and when I get back, we can continue.
But in YOUR space.
Okay, okay, okay. I'm being
Okay, okay, okay. I'm being a bad boy. I admit it but my sense of humor (or the absurd) makes me do it.
Here is a direct quote from ADD Trader:
"No, black people’s survival and advancement depends on white culture, because it is the dominant culture. And there are tens of millions of white people who are potential allies in your quest, who want the same thing you do. But black society is dangerously close to letting its leaders make the same mistake the (sic) made at they (sic) did at the dawn of the civil right(sic) movement, and setting the cause back decades."
I don't think I have to add anything except this: according to ADD Trader we have been out of pocket since 1609 because political conservatives and their late 20th Century progeny have always denied the validity of black folks engaging in civil disobedience and non-violent protest. Many of them are engaged in rewriting and revising their history with respect to the so-called modern Civil Rights Movement but the newspaper columns, magazine pieces, government documents etc. clearly shows their continued support for state sanctioned racial segregation. More than a few of them such as, for example, the now sainted William F. Buckley, Jr., opined more than once that violence from whites was an acceptable consequence of black protest and legal attacks against racial segregation.