Prometheus 6

It is unfortunate that CNN would repeat the same old and dry reasons for our many of our struggles. I watched both days of the "Black in America" special, and I have to say that, once again, I was disappointed. Although I always know that the media, even the Black-faced ones, will never get it right when speaking of us, I always seem to hope for something different. (Einstein's definition of insanity I guess.) I found myself yelling at the TV. To me, there seems to ba a staunch resistance on the part of Black intelligentsia, the media, and especially white America (no surprising) to acknowledge the "mark of oppression" and the legacy of slavery (and it's spin-offs like Jim Crow, et al) as key to our many sicknesses. That in itself is a problem. If a doctor refuses to acknowledge the cause of a sickness he will never develope the cure.

The causes have never been really addressed.

my comments at racismreview:

no1kstate Says:
July 25th, 2008 at 11:19 am
I agree. It takes more than academic success to be accused of “acting white.” Though I was regularly in honors and AP classes, I was only taunted for “acting white” once or twice. But only once that I really remember.

The one guy in my school who really caught heat for acting white seemed to shun the black student population and talk, walk, and behave “white.”

And in response to TJ, if that’s okay, let’s all be honest. Part of academic success does mean you have to accept, or at least pretend to accept, the white racial frame of reference. It also mean you may end up being your probably white teacher’s special Negro, thus adding to the notion of “acting white.” And the teachers who accept you as the “special Negro” certainly dress you down like they do the other black students. So, there is something to be said about having to “act white” to be academically successful, CNN’s failures notwithstanding. There is the notion that the material the students are learning is race-neutral, but that’s just not true.

no1kstate Says:
July 25th, 2008 at 11:22 am
I’m sorry, the teacher’s DON’T embarrass and disrespect you like they do other black students. The only ones who treated me like the other black students either didn’t know me or didn’t know my mother, who had taught at the high school I attended.

There is something that needs to be said of having to "act white" in order to be considered academically successful. For one it's just more evidence of how America continues to rejecct Blackness, in all if it's forms. (e.g., the conversation about sounding Black and employers.)

I think the focus was kind of wrong. We know there is a thread that runs throughout Black youth culture that on the seems to reject being educated - the "acting white" thing. Though I'm not a psychologist or anything but I don't think it's a rejection of education but a rejection of "white racial frame of reference". For at least 30 years the Black youth have grown tired of haveing to "pretend to accept" the "white racial frame of reference" in order to be accepted by white America, only to continue to be rejected. Note how CNN glossed over, I think, how even qualified Black men have less of a chance of finding a job than white convicted felons. The Black youth or not stupid. They see whats going on and are not liking it and are not acceping it, regardless of what Bill Cosby or Charles Barkley say. I just wish our Black "talented tenth" leadership had better answers to give them other than mimicry.

"I just wish our Black "talented tenth" leadership had better answers to give them other than mimicry."

_______________

It's not our kids that need to spoken to. It's our educators and lawmakers. Maybe Obama can give a speech on the "personal responsibility" of rejecting whiteness as the norm and superior to anything else.

No, ptc, I'm not holding my breath.

"No, ptc, I'm not holding my breath."

I didn't post a comment in this thread.

We know there is a thread that runs throughout Black youth culture that on the seems to reject being educated - the "acting white" thing.

I know nothing of the kind. That's why you said "seems", right?

SOME black kids who do well in school want to think of themselves as better than other blacks. They want to be thought of as different from the rest of those negroes. They go through school as snot-nosed bookworms, standoffish to other blacks, sycophantic to their white role models. In forming their twisted world-view, they totally discount the similar study habits of their fellow family members, their few black friends, their churchmates. The opinions and positive experiences of all the other studious blacks is irrelevant to them. All they know is that some thuggish jock or juvie made fun of them and left them with unfulfilled rage, not able to obtain their revenge until, when they grow up, they propagate to their white friends the self-serving myth that they were mercilessly hounded for the sole fact that they studied and did well in school. And when some of them secure privileged positions in academia and elsewhere, these little shelbys continue to frame the dialog in a manner that actively sells out the race.

For the rest of us, if we accept the premises that:

* studying and doing homework

* speaking up and expressing curiosity in class

* using reason as opposed to brute force to problem-solve

* showing self-respect and respect for others

* having career aspirations

means we are "acting white," then yes, kids have to "act white" to succeed. But if we do accept these premises, then we have already lost our way. We've already bought into the myth that being black is synonymous with "ghetto values," i.e., with failure. I prefer to think that those values are "good student" values, plain and simple.

I have to disagree with you xigxag.

Those habits of successful students you listed isn't "acting white." Accepting the racist lies being taught in schools is "acting white." And to get the teacher to like you and not send you to the office for breathing, you have to "act white."

Being smart isn't "acting white." Accepting the white racial frame reference where black English is substandard English, and all black contributed to building the country is slavery - and even that gets underplayed - is acting white.

Just like corporate America. The blacks who do best "act white." Kinda like Obama is doing now.

And P6, what I'm hearing which is even more disturbing is that a number of black kids actually believe the white kids are smarter. And I read in some other comments that the phenomenom isn't as widespread people think.

And xigxag, just in case I wasn't clear, you're coming at this from the wrong angle. It's throwing off your whole analysis. The "acting white" phenomenon isn't about the students; it's about our education system. Scholars in this area agree that the America education system is Eurocentric, and the higher you go in the system, and the more successful you are, the more Eurocentric our system becomes. So, the problem isn't the kids.

Being smart isn't acting white.

Given that we're in total agreement here, and I stated as much in my prior post, I wonder if there's a miscommunication going on. I think we may be simply discussing two different phenomena (hence different angles.) I was primarily disputing the popular myth of supposed dysfunction within the black community -- that blacks are peer-pressured into failure because they are otherwise deemed by friends and colleagues as "acting white." My analysis was regarding that alleged phenomenon, not about your take on "acting white" in terms of getting ahead by accepting and espousing Eurocentric values. I'm not by any means denying that that is a reality.

I absolutely agree that children are indoctrinated, sometimes subtly, sometimes openly, with racist lies in schools -- primarily on the "soft" side of the educational palette -- history, current events, English lit, etc. I'll take it as a given that most educators don't want to acknowledge their own role in the propagation of cultural hegemony, and find it offensive to for the same to be pointed out by their more enlightened students.

However, I can't really go along with the assertion that you have to act white in order to not be "sent to the office for breathing." From my experience, if you're a middle-of-the-pack student, the teacher is more than happy to just ignore you and focus his or her limited attentions on the exceptionally good or bad students. No doubt there's a bias: the teacher's more likely to think of you as exceptionally good and shower you with favorable attention if you reflect/affect/accept his/her value system, and more likely to think of you as irredeemable if, on top of your other problems learning the subject, they also perceive you as one o them arrogant, threatening whitey-hatin dysfunctional minorities.

You're all missing it.

Look...Bev Smith was an immediate and absolute supported of the Cosby rants, as was Tony Brown.

Here's a clip from a discussion the two of them had on the topic.

Got that? There IS no difference in behavior, just in labeling. They're all the same, money and connections makes it invisible.

I agree with you no1kstate. The actiing white thing IS about America's education system, and AMERICA as a whole. The Black youth of America DO NOT WANT TO ACCEPT THE WHITE FRAME OF REFERENCE IN ORDER TO BE SUCCESSFUL. They really never have and never will. Unfortunately, one way of rejecting that white frame reference is expressing itself is through education since education is almost always associated "success". The subconscious though go, I think. something like this: If I have to act white or be white-like to be successfull them I'd rather be do something else.

Now I don't think this is the youth's fault. They don't see nothing else or no other plan from the leadership, so they are left to their own devices, which are not too productive. It is not the kids.

Yeah, I know. I was just pre-emptively assuring you I didn't expect Obama to talk about racism in our schools' curriculum.

Sorry for the misunderstanding xigxag. My bad. Yes, some of the more academically successful students are sadiddy, I think is the word.

If I have to act white or be white-like to be successfull them I'd rather be do something else.

Ain't y'all kids go to church? At least when I was coming up there were plenty of role models of (moderately) successful black adults and studious peers in my congregation. As well as in my own family. As a kid, I never even occurred to me that doing ok in school meant I had to "act white," although, again, I did accept that I had to pay attention, do homework not drink or cut classes, etc. Some of which I occasionally messed up on anyway, but it wasn't out of some nihilistic racial despair (at least not on a conscious level), it was because I occasionally acted the fool just like any other teenager does, even white ones. Now, if our children come up with few positive role models in their daily lives, then I think for that reason alone they may have a hard time of it. Just as any other race or ethnicity. (Not to deny that we generally have a harder row to hoe because of racism)

They don't see nothing else or no other plan from the leadership, so they are left to their own devices, which are not too productive.

Yes, I agree, with the caveat that "the leadership" is primarily one's own parents, older relatives, responsible peers, church or neighborhood organization. Kids don't need no Al, Jesse or Cos Ed.D. telling them how to ack. With good local support, kids can do well without having to swallow some kind of "white is good black is bad" internal mapping. I imagine the readers of this blog are basically living proof within their own families/neighborhoods that you don't need to be a self-loathing shelby in order to do OK in life.

Absolutely no difference in behavior, P6. Just in adults' attitudes towards "others."

I imagine the readers of this blog are basically living proof within their own families/neighborhoods that you don't need to be a self-loathing shelby in order to do OK in life.

Yup.

Y'know, I really don't believe that Steele is self-loathing. I think he just has different issues on his plate than the overwhelming majority of African Americans. Steele's mother was white and his wife is white. No doubt Steele's children will not select African Americans as their spouses. Steele is more concerned, I believe, with where his children and grandchildren will fit into American society. He is still full of crap but his concerns are really not the same as ours. Not at all. Black folks should regard him as an outsider who has some distinctly outside opinions about black people.

If we go around disinheriting African Americans based upon the percentage of their blackness, we're going to have to let Halle, Sydney, Mya and Rashida go, and I ain't prepared to do that. :) If he was one of those steadfast cablinasians I'd toss him out with the trash but since he seems to basically think of himself as African American of biracial ancestry, that's enough for me to consider him a Black a-hole as opposed to a mixed race one. Besides, probably most AAs are mixed-race anyway, technically. It's just a question of how immediately exposed they are to their various cultural heritages, and how far back they push the word "black" on the race roll. (e.g., if they're one of those "Irish, English, Scottish, German, Cherokee, Chinese....and um, black" types and they look like Idi Amin, I'm gonna roll my eyes at least.)

I am not disinheriting Shelby Steele from any aspect of his black heritage and no part of what I wrote could reasonably be construed as an effort on my part to do so. It is my opinion that given the race of his mother and choice of a spouse, and my speculations about the choices his own children will make given the family's lifestyle and geographical location, that his concerns are vastly different from the overwhelming majority of African Americans.

How Shelby Steele sees himself is a matter of his choice. How much credibility I want to grant him in terms of he perceives me as a black man, husband and father is severely limited because I do not believe he and I share the concerns or, more importantly, that our children and grandchildren will face the same racial issues.

You now, I and a friend (who is a male teacher) counsel Black youth males everyday here in Chicago's inner city, where we both live. Many of whom are drop outs, selling drugs, or otherwise street runners selling anything they can get their hands on. and some are as young as 10.

".....the caveat that "the leadership" is primarily one's own parents, older relatives, responsible peers, church or neighborhood organization."

From what I see many parents of Black youth in the community are in no better shape to "lead" anything, their peers are doing the same as them, they see churche leaders in the neighborhood riding Cadillacs but little else and neighborhood organizations march but little else. This is not coming from me, it comes from what is told to me by the very Black male youth I speak to. They have absolutely no confidence in the schools system (and if you know Chicago's schools you'd see why), they see little employment opportunities, and they understand just how they are needed in the criminal justice system. There is one one guy I'm doing everything I can to keep from dropping out of collage. He graduated with a B average in high school but is almost failing out in collage because, frankly, he was ill-prepared in high school. There is another male I know and speak to a lot is a 17 year old who sells drugs who watches 24 year old collage graduate brother (who I talk to as well) continue to struggle to find employment for the past 6 months. The older brother is now contemplating selling drugs.

I can go on and on with examples llike this. My point here is that if the youth have nothing to substanciate a positive attitude about their reality we can't expect them to respond in a positive way. Now, I could be just old fashioned, but I happen to believe that a peoples leadership is as comparable to a father in the home. When there is an absent ineffective father or inneffective leadership, the people, like the family will suffer.

One thing that I keep running into when I talk to these youth is that they all tell me, in so many words, that they don no want to be white to be successfull. And one, recently asked me "WHY DO OUR LEADERSHIP KEEP PUSHING US TO ACT WHTIE?" What shoud I tell him?

Tell him they are not pushing them to act white, they are pushing them to be bilingual. They can be exactly what they choose to be. But if you're working in the world you have to understand, be understood, be familiar with the rituals of the place they wish to occupy.

Osiris_E it would be very interesting if the black youths you are refering to made a list of The top ten ways whites act white. It would also be interesting to see a similiar list of top 10 ways blacks act black from theses same youths. It would also be very interesting for them to list 10 things they would like to change.

Has there been a study done on how white children react to/treat the black children in their classes.

Ishmael - "acting white" has little to do with actually academic achievement. It has to do with the way one dresses, styles one's her, etc, etc. Those things should have no bearing on someone's academic achievement. It just so happens that they do because white teachers fear blackness and black children suffer because of it.

I do agree, somewhat, with you P6. But I not so sure how being pushed to be bilingual applies to the more base circumstances they daily face. I'm not saying that being bilingual wouldn't be good for them; I just don't see how them being bilingual RIGHT NOW will help them.

While "the way one dresses, styles one's her, etc, etc." has nothing to do with academic achievement, it has all but all to do with success.

"It would also be very interesting for them to list 10 things they would like to change." or see changed.

That is something I will be asking the males youth I talk to......

I do agree, somewhat, with you P6. But I not so sure how being pushed to be bilingual applies to the more base circumstances they daily face. I'm not saying that being bilingual wouldn't be good for them; I just don't see how them being bilingual RIGHT NOW will help them.

Are you teaching academic achievement or success? They overlap but aren't identical.

For success, understanding mainstream cultural rituals is vital. There are ways of expressing your true identity in every language, every culture and subculture. 

Communicating with individuals
White folks, like most humans, will not change while they are comfortable with their present state. As such, the larger part of our educational efforts will consist of making them uncomfortable with their assumptions. This is to be done acting in ways other than they expect. Fortunately they are not so individual as they think, so there's only a limited number of techniques that need be applied.

They are very sensitive to body language and visual cues. They have a body language for work, another for relaxing (actually several, depending on who they are relaxing with. At times, the only way to tell they are supposed to be relaxing is that they are at a designated relaxation time and place), another for worship, and all these body languages have variants for each class and gender combination they are likely to encounter.

There's a strong feedback loop in the systems that detect visual cues, initiate various body language modes and determine actions when they interact. Aggressive body language makes them either aggressive or timid, depending on the situation they are in. More, all their body language modes are initiated in Pavlovian fashion. They've built two industries on initiating and profiting from knee-jerk reactions: advertising and politics (though some of our thinkers are of the opinion that these two industries are actually the same, differentiated merely by subject matter).

Keep this in mind as you deal with them. The easiest way to get your white people to respond properly is to assume the position that they feel they must respond to. This isn't a matter of relative social position, because they have no idea what your social position is (though they may well feel otherwise). It's a matter of displaying the body language they respond to in the way you wish. There may be a little interference caused by the visual cues they pick up before the body language; skin color, modes of dress, physical condition, all are reacted to immediately by these precocious beings. You may choose to allow this, though it may make training them more difficult. I personally have found that the best results come from keeping the obvious signs of our differences while assuming the aspect of those they respect through judicious use of body language and attire.

Another approach we attempted was through spoken language. We know that any thought, any knowledge, can be expressed in any language…even if it's necessary to invent a new word to do so. So we invented new words regularly, and used old words in new ways, in an attempt to demonstrate both that the expression is not the idea and that ideas are not limited by the words you know. To be honest, this approach has been less than successful. They seem unable to accept the new words until they can work out some definitive meaning for it that allows it to be cataloged. Therefore we must be flexible. We must use our multi-lingual capability as they seem not to have it. We can continue to use more expressive and accurate terms among ourselves; however there is no need to confuse the poor white folks who, as evidenced by their belief in the verbal statements of those who are known liars (e.g. advertisers and politicians), are apparently more than confused enough.

The final suggestion that is generally applicable is that you must gain expertise in some area they "respect". Silly, I know. Also dangerous, as this is how we lost many of our people to the mental illness we know as capitalism. There seems to be something about the knowledge that they respect that unbalances those who accept it uncritically. Yet they must "respect" you before they listen to you and there are only two ways to gain their respect: to agree uncritically (risking mental instability) or to be their provable superior (mentally or socially - though they much prefer socially).

This sounds silly because we know respect is due one for being a man or a woman…no other reason should be required. That is why "respect" is in quotes. Those who respect things more than people do not actually have any respect.

In following this dangerous suggestion, it is crucial that you hang on to your sense of self as you study. Do not allow yourself to be inflated, deflated or biased by anything you memorize.

 

Hey, P6! I read the first sentence and KNEW this was from ‘The Care and Feeding of White Folks’

I think it is ABSOLUTELY one of the deepest, funniest and TRUEST things I’d ever read! (…And I did read the WHOLE thing!) This goes back to, what? 2004-05?

(…From the old green ‘Niggaratti’ days! What happened with that? Needless to say, I fell off for awhile!)

The one thing that was emphasized to me as a child about education was the need to master the logic of the society you live in.

You may not agree with it, but to effectively navigate it, you need to understand how it works.

Otherwise, in my mind’s eye, (…Or, at least how I came about interpreting what I was taught!) it amounts to the equivalent of trying to live in a foreign country without the ability to speak the language to survive.

(…From the old green ‘Niggaratti’ days! What happened with that? Needless to say, I fell off for awhile!)

God, I wish you hadn't asked that...

That was the beginning of my developer/web master (as opposed to blog software user)  days. I actually deleted the wrong database and wiped it out. Really pissed at myself to this day, because it had gotten off to a wonderful start. Frankly, I think P6 only recently matched its quality.