Prometheus 6

I actually had a more substantial question for the next open thread. I just can't remember what it was.

But, after a few days of back and forth in other threads, I would like to thanks P6 and others who don't follow any religion for their respectfulness of religious beliefs. It bothers me that the some in the "intellectual" left lambast on people of faith as having the same beliefs and stripes. As though those who subscribe to Liberation theology have more in common with Christian conservatives than our Sunday schedule.

If I remember the question I had, I'll ask, but until then, thanks for the cordiality.

I would like to thanks P6 and others who don't follow any religion for their respectfulness of religious beliefs.

Hey, only grownups can play here. We card you in ways gross and subtle...

Given my insistence on physical fact, my respect for folks' religious beliefs may be surprising. But it is a physical fact that way too many people get comfort and strength from their religion for me to deny that impact. That don't mean I gotta give it up...

Here's the question that's been bothering me:

when people say no one died during the Cold War and praise Reagan for winning the war without shooting a bullet, exactly what do they mean? I didn't study the Cold War much in college, and from what I learned in high school, the little in college, and some since college - Vietnam War, Korean War, the Grenada invasion, the murder of Patrice Lamumba, the Russian invasion of Afganistan, etc, etc had everything to do with the "Cold War."

So, what do people mean when the say the Cold War ended without fire?

"...So, what do people mean when the say the Cold War ended without fire?"

Up until now, before attempting to look at it from your perspective, the concept of 'The Cold War' for me was always the two biggest and baddest superpowers on the planet, Russia and the US, engaged in a nuclear stare down to see who was going to blink first.

Ronnie eventually punked them and made them back down without so much as cracking open the code book to 'How to Set Off Nuclear Weapons in Your Neighbors Backyard and Totally Freak them Out' made easy!

Granted, you're not incorrect that all this other stuff was going down in and around the peripheral edges, but when I think 'Cold War', in my mind, it starts and ends with Reagan and Gorbachev.

I guess I get the whole Reagan/Gorbachev point of view. I mean, I understand how and why it's viewed that way. I actually didn't start thinking of it any other way until a few months ago.

My qualm with that pov is that it's like everything globably is so Eurocentric, that millions of people of color die, countries are destroyed, some of that "Cold War" has bled over and turned into weapons for terror, and no one cares and no one connects the dots. It would be funny if it weren't so infuriating to note the relative cheapness of the lives of non-whites. I guess the ironic thing about it is that not even the lives of whites are considered in this pov. The funny thing is that McCain praises Reagan for his handling of the Cold "War," and still believes that Vietnam was winnable - but he can't raise his arm above his shoulder essentially because of the Cold War!

Which makes me think something else. No one so blind and mentally challenged should be allowed to be president. We need to add some more requirements to the Constitution - no one who's so blindly patriotic, they think the Courts decision upholding habeus corpus is the worst in history, and who's so mentally challenge, he can't connet the dots from the West's global racism and the "Cold War" to the Vietman War and his 5 years in the Hanoi Hilton.

Then again, of course, his personal ambition to be president is so great, McCain knows all that and doesn't care.

"when people say no one died during the Cold War and praise Reagan for winning the war without shooting a bullet, exactly what do they mean?"

Lots of people died during the Cold War. They just didn't die in a hot war between the U.S. and the Soviet Union. Two and one-half million Vietnamese died, for example, because U.S. policy was wedded to the so-called "domino theory" and containing the expansion of the Soviet Union and its allies like "Red" China. American policy makers, for example, were completely ignorant about the history of Vietnam and unaware of the centuries old deep animosity between the Chinese and Vietnamese.

The overthrow and murder of Salvador Allende and the democratically elected government of Chile and the installation of the barbaric and murderous dictatorship led by General Pinochet that led to the deaths of thousands of Chileans was a consequence of the Cold War. The invasion of Afghanistan by the Soviet Union and its clumsy attempts to turn Afghanistan into a client state resulted in the deaths of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of Afghani people was another consequence of the Cold War. The murder of Patrice Lumumba, the anti-colonial leader of the emerging democratic Republic of Congo, and the installation of a brutal pro-western dictator who directed the killings of tens of thousands of Congolese was another consequence of the Cold War. The list goes on and on.

When so-called pundits declare that nobody died they are either lying or don't consider millions of other people who are not white as human beings.

BTW, Reagan did not punk the Soviet Union. In my opinion, the Soviet Union was a criminal enterprise that was slowly collapsing as a result of its venality and ineptitude over a period of 70 years. It collapsed as a result of its own internal contradictions, not Ronald Reagan demanding that Gorbachev tear down the Berlin Wall. The Soviet Union may, unfortunately, have the last laugh after all because we swallowed hook, line and sinker Nikita Khrushchev's ridiculous threat to bury us. Consequently, we created the basis for sabotaging our own political and economic well being by developing the national security state and the imperial presidency and its never ending thirst for war.

"My qualm with that pov is that it's like everything globably is so Eurocentric, that millions of people of color die, countries are destroyed, some of that "Cold War" has bled over and turned into weapons for terror, and no one cares and no one connects the dots. It would be funny if it weren't so infuriating to note the relative cheapness of the lives of non-whites. I guess the ironic thing about it is that not even the lives of whites are considered in this pov. The funny thing is that McCain praises Reagan for his handling of the Cold "War," and still believes that Vietnam was winnable - but he can't raise his arm above his shoulder essentially because of the Cold War!"--no1kstate

Interesting analysis. The lives of whites are considered, but in a system like this there are going to be "white sacrifices", because it works on a percentage basis. Sadly, the lives of non-whites are worth-less.

I'm guessing as the standard of living continues to drop in the West, that either whites will change their minds and decide that they want justice, or become increasingly violent.

Since this is an open thread I will reveal my small nationalistic streak by asking this important question: What in the world is wrong with the United States men's 4X100 meter relay teams? The men's 4X100 meter relay teams have been plagued by troubles since the 1960 Olympics when the team finished first but was disqualified because one team member stepped out of the assigned lane as he ran. The relay teams are among my favorite events in track and field. Now the American women are messing up as well. What's up guys?

Please don't mess up on the 4X400 meter relay races. My heart will be broken.

Thanks everyone for indulging my Cold War confusion.

Here's another question: what's with the sudden deaths of famous and/or influential black people. I'm not one for conspiracies - but Tubbs-Jones and then Gene Upshaw?

"I'm not one for conspiracies - but Tubbs-Jones and then Gene Upshaw?"

You are one for conspiracies!

There are a lot of factors at work here. How long has it been since Upshaw and Tubbs-Jones underwent thorough physical exams? Did Tubbs-Jones have, for example, undiagnosed hypertension. If it was diagnosed, was she following her doctor's prescription for reducing her blood pressure and stress such as losing weight, reducing sodium intake, changing her diet, exercising regularly and taking her medications.

There is ample evidence showing that too many black men, even when they have access to first rate medical care, do not take advantage of it. I know the Tuskeegee Study is often cited as a cause of this behavior but I ain't buying it because this behavior existed long before that infamous "study" became widely known.

The other thing is that Upshaw and Tubbs-Jones reached that age in our cohort group (I'm fifty-nine.) where folks start dying off. It may happen more frequently among blacks because of health disparities, poverty, cultural issues etc. but it begins happening more frequently as we age.

A few years ago I did a tally of all the people who were in my high school graduation class who have died. I graduated in 1966. Ninety-two percent of all those who died were black, although black students only comprised 16 percent of the graduating class. Eighty-seven percent of the deaths in this group were of black men. Surprisingly, however, the only person in the entire graduating class who died as a result of violence was a white women who was killed along with her boyfriend in a police shootout in Texas.

PT you are on point destroying the fallacy that the Cold War was bloodless when in fact even compared to WWII some of the most devilish atrocities and genocides where committed as a result of the cold war.

And to bring it home, The Contra sanctioned drug financing by Reagan/Bush resulted in the crack epidemic that we are still paying for to this day. whats the tally of bodies attached to that?

You are one for conspiracies!

LOL!

Not generally. Like I don't think that BushCo was in some conspiracy to have 9/11 happen. That was just sheer stupidy, apathy, and incompetence.

But this string of high-profile black deaths in the last several weeks? I don't know.

The Contra sanctioned drug financing by Reagan/Bush

Sandman, I thought about including that in my analysis. But wasn't quite sure what the Contras had to do with Russia. Kinda like Cuba, I thought US interests may have been more about exploiting Nicaruagua financially and sexually, by which I mean white men going down to molest underaged Cuban girls, like they were doing Cuba.

But now that I think about it, the Contras were fighting a leftist-govt, and Reagan/Bush was selling weapons to Iran to help them fight Russia.

So now, lets through the crack-epidemic as well as the rise in heroin use and opium growth in Afganistan and the increase in drug-use in Pakistan to the growing list of atrocities that occurred fighting the "bloodless" Cold War.

"But this string of high-profile black deaths in the last several weeks? I don't know."

Black folks, whether they are famous or live anonymously, are mortal. High profile people who are not black die every day. Check out the obituary page of the New York Times. We are born into a world that is of necessity older than we are and we past out of a world that has grown older.

Black folks, whether they are famous or live anonymously, are mortal.

HEY! You're messing with my Chaos Lord avatar status there...

People die everyday. I know that. I'm not an idiot. But in my short lifetime, haven't witness such a string of deaths. Especially in light of the current presidential campaign.

But, since I'm the only seeing something odd in this, we can let it go. Maybe I've seen too many crime drama where people are murdered and it looks like a natural death.

"People die everyday. I know that. I'm not an idiot. But in my short lifetime, haven't witness such a string of deaths. Especially in light of the current presidential campaign."

You know that I know you're not an idiot.

I still want to know what's happening with the U.S. men's 4x100 meter relay teams. Dropping batons, running out of assigned lanes, failing to hand off the baton in the designated space, not showing up for qualifying heats etc. More than 40 years of bad luck.

The US women's team was disqualified too and a missed baton pass from Torri Edwards and Lauren Williams, I think that's her name.

And thanks for the vote of confidence.

I mean, what a disaster

It began in the 1960 Olympics with the team anchored by the great Ray Norton. Norton failed to win gold in the 100 and 200 meters despite being favored to win. Then the relay team finished first but was disqualified because as I recall the guy running the second leg stepped out the assigned lane. It has been crazy since then despite some victories.

Both USA men and women won gold, ptc!

Feeling better?

I can't recall an Olympics when the U.S. men's team did not prevail in this event regardless of whether or not an American took gold in the 400 meters. The best assortment of quarter milers (the old 440 yard dash) still come from the U.S.

When I was young, there was an informative poster on what to do in case of a "HOT WAR" between the United States and the Soviet Union.

The gist of the information was: Bend over, put your head between your legs, and kiss your ass goodby.