Al Barger of Culpepper Log

Due to the length of this one, I'm inserting my comments in his.

Al Barger of Culpepper Log

People, people can't we all just get along?

P6, I suspect that I'm merely volunteering for some abuse here, but you seem to be a dozen kinds of twisted up in determination to find reasons to be crappy with whitey. "white folks' race issue is they don't want to be held responsible for racism." It's not that I don't want to be held responsible, but that I am not and will not be held liable for the crimes or perceived crimes of other people's ancestors.

Based on the link you inserted to begin your comment I would have to agree with you. You are volunteering for some abuse.

You are not being held personally liable. The institution, The United States of America, took specific, directed actions to obstruct and damage the social and economic infrastructure of the Black communities. The various state and local governments did the same to varying degrees in addition to complying with federally mandated obstructions. We were actively prevented from participating in the subsidization of economic growth provided "The Greatest Generation". And we still suffer the effects of this exclusion. The most recent proof can be had by considering Alan Greenspan's statement that the increased value of homeowner's equity made the recent economic downturn bearable. Black folks on the whole, largely because they were shunted to housing projects at the same time white Americans were having their home ownership subsidized, did not have that benefit.

That is the source of the liability. That is the group of entities that must respond. If you identify so strongly with any of them that you feel personally attacked, well, consider yourself personally attacked.

Further, guilting white folks is getting more and more difficult as we get generations past Jim Crow. That stuff was ugly, and a lot of white folks have - largely deservedly - felt great guilt for the ill treatment of blacks. However, no one below about the age of 45 or 50 has even childhood memories of Jim Crow.

Thus, very few 20 or 30 year old white guys have EVER oppressed a black man. I know I've never been mean to someone for being black, or insisted on a black person moving to the back of the bus. Nor, to the best of my knowledge, has anyone in my family.

In short, I for one am innocent, and simply refuse to accept a package of unearned guilt.

There's no such thing as a "level playing field." In the classic words of Tom Petty, "everybody's had to fight to be free."

In fact, we've pretty well dismantled institutional racism in America, and the big majority of people are trying to do right.

However, y'all got to meet us halfway. Recognize that some of the problems come from your side of the aisle. For example, I'm sympathetic to the classic complaint about black guys having trouble getting a taxi, but do you expect taxi drivers not to notice or take into account that young black men in this country have far higher crime rates than about any other group? Do you expect them to ignore reality in front of their faces and their own physical security?

This stuff has been addressed so many times by so many people I see no reason to do more than note in passing you said it.

I gently suggest that at this point black folks are most often their own worst enemies. I hasten to add that I am probably my own worst enemy.

I have not found much noticeable advantage in being white. The one real main benefit of being a heterosexual white male really seems to be that we are more held to standards. When I screw the pooch, I don't get to blame it on anyone else.

There is no advantage to being white. Being Black carries a social penalty.

The question should not be what the Republicans are doing for you, but what the Democrats are doing to you. Left wingers have spent many decades infantilizing minority groups, particularly black folks. They seem to have convinced a lot of people that they are weak and helpless, incapable of doing for themselves without the benificient help of the Democrat Party to stop the evil white man conspiracy against them.

This stuff has been addressed so many times by so many people I see no reason to do more than note in passing you said it.

"If white folks collectively can simply decide they have no responsibility for the racial problems we face then we are going to live with them forever."

Not necessarily. Those what are are screwing up can straighten up and fly right. Whitey CAN'T solve the problems of the black man.

And what is the race problem YOU have? Can Black people solve it? That's what is being put on us.

'if I have to take responsibility for the ills of the Black "race"'

Well, no, you, P6 do not have to take responsibility for the ills of all black people - just your own.

That's kind of you to say. You are in disagreement with the majority of society, though

By the way, what exactly would I, Al Barger, need to do or say in order be judged clean and not-racist?

And here we come to the crux of the matter.

The short answer is, if you don't know there may be nothing you can do.

Finally, a few words in defense of the lovely and fierce Miss Juliette: The issue shouldn't be how any words she says might be used, but whether her words are correct.

Juliette needs no defense. And her words are correct in the same way one can say that alcohol is wet and still know better than to throw a bucket of it on an open flame.

You're attributing FAR too much power to the opinions of whitey. The success or failure of a black man trying to break out of poverty will be largely based on their own actions, and will have little to do with what Al Barger or any other white guy thinks. Further, their success will have NOTHING to do with what whitey thinks about what Baldilocks thinks.

I attribute power to the actions whitey takes under the influence of whitey's opinions. You, by attributing NO power to whitey's opinion, are categorically wrong.

Um, you ARE saying whitey has no power, right? That racism among white people can not obstruct us, has no impact on us at all, right?

Let us conclude this evening's seminar on racial reconciliation by reciting together as one the wise words of Aunt Eller from "The Farmer and the Cowman"

I'm not saying that I'm better than anybody else
But I'll be danged if I ain't just as good

Posted by Prometheus 6 on July 20, 2004 - 10:05am :: Race and Identity
 
 

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Um, you ARE saying whitey has no power, right? That racism among white people can not obstruct us, has no impact on us at all, right?

No, Prom, some ill will among some white folks some of the time doubtless has some impact. But is that the deal, that the black man is just pretty well screwed and can't be happy and satisfied so long as any white guy doesn't like you?

Obviously we will have different perspectives, but I'm inclined to say that the mix in 2004 goes something like that the success of a black American comes impacted maybe 1 part from the racial hang-ups of The Man and 50 parts from the actions of the individual brother.

Insisting on looking for and magnifying and dwelling on every scrap of anything you can find that you even might TRY to describe as discrimination only holds you back.

And what is the race problem YOU have? Can Black people solve it? That's what is being put on us.

I don't have much of a "race problem." I think I'm fairly straight on these issues, other than having to fend off the occassional bit of nonsense from some particular black person who insists on trying to inflict their personal patholgies off on me.

On the other hand, I don't particularly expect a merit badge for this. It's easier for me to be straight on this than it is for you - my people in my grandparents' generation weren't swinging from the trees.

As to my question about what it is you would expect me to do, this answer is not particularly helpful:

The short answer is, if you don't know there may be nothing you can do.

Well, then maybe there's nothing I can do. I try to treat people right and be understanding. Other than that, I don't know.

By the way, is this answer supposed to indicate that not knowing what apparently should be some obvious answer marks me as stupid, or insensitive, or what exactly?

Posted by  Al Barger (not verified) on July 20, 2004 - 1:55pm.

Um, you ARE saying whitey has no power, right? That racism among white people can not obstruct us, has no impact on us at all, right?

No, Prom, some ill will among some white folks some of the time doubtless has some impact. But is that the deal, that the black man is just pretty well screwed and can't be happy and satisfied so long as any white guy doesn't like you?

No. The deal is, you challenge irrational restrictions or you live with them. And there's no contradiction between issuing those challenges and acting as a free agent at other times.

For some reason people like to argue as though challenging racism actually prevents you from acting in other ways. Sorry, it's not the case.

Obviously we will have different perspectives, but I'm inclined to say that the mix in 2004 goes something like that the success of a black American comes impacted maybe 1 part from the racial hang-ups of The Man and 50 parts from the actions of the individual brother.

I'd estimate 10% white folks' issues, 10% Black folk's issues and 80% continuing repercussion of Jim Crow and the exclusion from FHA programs after WW II.

As to my question about what it is you would expect me to do, this answer is not particularly helpful:

Oh, well.

By the way, is this answer supposed to indicate that not knowing what apparently should be some obvious answer marks me as stupid, or insensitive, or what exactly?

No. This statement:
It's easier for me to be straight on this than it is for you - my people in my grandparents' generation weren't swinging from the trees.

marks you as stupid and insensitive.

Welcome to ban-dom, asshole.

Posted by  P6 (not verified) on July 20, 2004 - 2:35pm.