Prometheus 6

Excuse my language in this comment, but I think it's understandably on topic.

I think individuals who have been involved with language reclamation movements are more likely to understand the use of certain language within groups and exclusion of that language by outsiders.

The American Deaf will only give deaf names to those who use ASL and are involved in the deaf community. Is this discrimination? Who cares? They do so to increase group solidarity, similarly to the use of the oft reviled "n-word" within groups of African-Americans, and the tendency of me and my girlfriends to call each other bitches.

You'd better be willing to bet that having a man I don't know call me a bitch, no matter his intention, makes my head whip around just as being called a nigger by a white person makes many black people do.

In addition, those of us who have had language used against us in degrading and demeaning ways are far more likely to be offended by it's usage. I put down a liberal book recently when the author had the audacity to call Democrats "pussies" within the first few pages. My boyfriend didn't understand. I told him that once he is referred to as "pussy" he can make a judgment call on my anger.

Similar arguments can be made for calling something "gay," calling someone you don't like a "fag," and referring people who stand in your way, for example, "girlie men." It just so happens to offend those of us who are marginalized by it's use, especially by outsiders.

And you'd think all that would be obvious.

Nah man, you got me all wrong. It is factually incorrect to say that "no one else can use" the term in question. We can. And we're not racists because of it. Quite the opposite, in fact, and that's the point.

Your post illustrates my post better than I could have done myself. Thanks.

It is, indeed factually incorrect to say white people cannot use the term.

You state categorically "we are not racist for it". That not always (frankly, not even usually) being the case, you are factually incorrect as well.

Interesting that you feel I've given your case greater weight when I feel your need to argue your right to the word proves mine.

And remember, my point is not that you're racist but that your problem with race is a driving need to feel free of responsibility for it.

You state categorically "we are not racist for it". That not always (frankly, not even usually) being the case, you are factually incorrect as well.

Point taken.

By "we" I meant non-racists.

My post is not about "the word." I probably shouldn't even have brought it up, distracting as it can be. It's only one piece of the puzzle, illustrative for its power, but hardly unique. The only reason I brought it up is because the courts treat the word like some magical mystical curse with but one meaning. That's not real. I do not deny the epithet, but it's like the word "queer" - understood properly only in context. Old-school white America has precious little understanding of this context, but old-school white America is not all there is.

My point is that many folks (perhaps you, perhaps not) lack the ability or desire to tell the good guys from the bad guys. Milbarge and I had the gall to talk about race - you saw it as evidence that we are "crazy." Your unwarranted assumption of the high ground - such that we did not even merit a substantive response - aptly illustrates my point. You'd make enemies out of natural friends.

I'm not denying the existence or importance of race. I'm not going around being insensitive - I have full mastery of the tips and techniques necessary to avoid pissing people off. I'm not an "angry white man" or a closet Klansman or a dejected victim of affirmative action. Rather...

Plainly and simply and without rancor, I plead not guilty. I am not guilty. This may indeed appear to be my "problem with race," but in my view it is someone else's problem. We don't all look the same, you know.

Milbarge and I had the gall to talk about race - you saw it as evidence that we are "crazy." Your unwarranted assumption of the high ground - such that we did not even merit a substantive response - aptly illustrates my point.

Check the whole statement:

it's more evidence that the they are as crazy as we are.

I hardly think saying your condition is equivalent to mine is an assumption of moral high ground, warranted or not. In fact, were I inclined to JUDGE I would begin by asking what your starting assumption was that let you read an assumption of moral supreriority in my simple few words. Especially since I remember your comments on Cobb in what turned into the Identity Blogging thead I followed last year.

But I'm not inclined to judge right now.

You'd make enemies out of natural friends

Only if the misread what I say.

I do not intend to misread you. All apologies. You set out two quotations and called them "crazy" (yes, as crazy as "we" are, whoever we are). I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that this was an expression of disapproval and/or disagreement. You know what happens when we assume.

And thus I suppose I reveal my "problem" with race. I said I'm not a racist, gosh darnit! So don't you go around questioning my self-definition - or even uttering words that might be wrongly interpreted as questioning my self-definition!! Because if you do, I will clamp my hands over my ears and rock back and forth and shout "La la la la la la" so that I cannot hear you.

Yes, this is absurd. Let us begin again.

When I click on your link labeled "there are white folks who already got a grip" I find a cartoon in which the punch line is that white people "don't have to feel bad anymore" or words to that effect. I consider this akin to my statement in the comment above that I plead not guilty. In fact, I do not feel bad, and I do not think I should.

This leads me to believe I am not included among the white people who, in your view, already got a grip. You will doubtless correct me (again) if I am wrong (again) but come on, did you really, truly not mean to scold?

Why do white people have to say nigger anyways? Will it uplift you and make you feel good about yourself? C'mon! White folks you are the majority. Do you really need to say nigger freely to feel free? Go ahead and say it. Oh, you want to say it in the presence of black folks and have no reaction. Ahh! Well, thank your ancestors for wearing nigger, or we niggers) out literally and figuratively. Smoke on that for awhile.

As a damaged black man, I reserve the right to sprinkle "nigger" and "nigga" liberally WHEN and WHERE I feel like it. Sorry you can't. Get in a time machine and stop slavery then maybe we can talk. :)

T-Steel, Steve isn't really trying to preserve the right to use the term. It's his understanding of racism and how to be free of it he defends.

And thus I suppose I reveal my "problem" with race.

You learn quickly, grasshopper.

Starting over would take us quite a way back, Steve:

Steve:

If the goal for 100 years from now is that I should be as Black as I choose to be, no more and no less…

And you should be as white as you choose to be, no more and no less…

And neither of us are stressed by the othe about it…

How should we act today?

Posted by: Prometheus 6 at September 18, 2003 06:56 PM

P6 - good questions. I'm attracted to your statement of goals for 100 years from now... I suppose we ought to be going about our business, doing what we do, engaging each other and explaining ourselves to each other in a spirit of good faith and mutual respect.

And I think that's what we're doing. Do you agree?

This is truly a mind-expanding discussion for me - sorry to babble on and on, but race has fascinated me since I was very young. I sincerely appreciate the effort many of you have made in this discussion, even though I'm sure you've all plowed this ground a million times already. You're causing me to reflect deeply on these matters and reconsider longtime, strongly held opinions.

I thank you for that.

Posted by: BTD Steve at September 18, 2003 07:52 PM

I left off the "Black Woman" thing because it's clumsy to explain out of context. And in context it's obvious the thanks is not directed specifically at me but at everyone in that very good thread.

But out of context it would be easy to make your thanks seem directed toward me.

If you look around you'll see that if I intended to scold I'd be direct about it. I don't think it unreasonable that you haven't yet.

Maybe it will help to let you know I chose both your posts because they indicate you guys want freedom from concern about racism by actually being free of racism. There are those whose desire for freedom from that concern is NOT honorable and one of the standing policies around here is not linking under any circumstances to anyone whose opinions I have neither respect nor concern for.

Steve, I just noticed I actually forgot the link to your post. In light of the last sentance above I feel the need to say that was not intentional.

BTD Steve, you'll never have freedom from concern about racism as long as the products of American slavery, black folks, are around. Our very presence in America means you will lack the "freedom from concern". Since we still carry burdens from slavery, you have to shoulder your own "burden" until we both heal. I want to not ne concerned about racism, but I can't. Even in the most relaxed situations, a part of me is always on-guard.

T-Steel, I rarely want to use the word nigger - when I do it's almost always when it seems an appropriate moment to quote a rap song. Sometimes in life it seems right to say, "Please nigger, I worked too hard for this. No more will I take the booty end of the stick." I think we can probably all agree that using the word nigger as a hateful racial epithet is rude, disagreeable and generally a bad thing. But to maintain that only black people are entitled to its other uses seems, to me, not only unnecessarily divisive, but also in denial of the cultural cross-pollination occurring all around us all the time.

P6, I'm not sure I agree with the formulation that I want to be "free of concern" about racism. I think I'm concerned about it very much, as in, I think it's a terrible wrong and I actively oppose it in my public and private life. I think I'm shooting more for freedom from personal guilt and Milbarge-style constant second-guessing - because I think it's patronizing.

I don't want to pussy-foot around you and treat you like your delicate sensibilities might be shattered if I cross the street at the wrong time or make an innocuous observation about your soft drink preference. I want to be real with you.

It's not that I "want" to be free of concern about racism by actualy being free of racism. It works the other way around - people who ARE free of racism will not worry about their non-racist actions being misconstrued.

Am I there yet? No. Like Milbarge, I worry about this stuff constantly. Each of us is a product of his time.

I know it's easy to make fun - like those cartoons you linked - of white people who merely wish to ignore or deny the continuing reality of racism and the generational fallout of slavery. It's equally easy to make fun of hyper-sensitive blacks who get riled up over nothing, such as some manager's use of the word "niggardly," or the Sprite fiasco.

But these are caricatures. Milbarge and I are something else - a couple of white guys trying to do right, but having a terrible time figuring out what that means. Our fellow white people are of no help - most of them are so terrified of offending anybody that they dance around the subject of race altogether. Too many blacks respond to our inquiries with an exaggerated air of wry wisdom, gently (if we're lucky) suggesting we'll never really understand, but for now incessant self-flagellation is a good start.

I'm saying we ought to just chill out, quit trying to act any sort of way, and stop assuming anything having to do with race must necessarily have to do with racism.

Steve:

Do you realize how bizarre it sounds to say denying white folks the use of the word "nigger" is divisive? I don't care WHAT context you use it in. This is so bizarre I have to just give you the rule: if you have to consider whether it's appropriate, it isn't. There's a dichotomy in dealing with word, using vs. mentioning them. You're safe mentioning the word "nigger."

That's the rule, no negotiation, no joke.

I count seven, maybe eight points in what you say that you need to reconsider, really. I don't even know whether to discuss them with you or not. I mean, you actually validate what I'm saying:

Our fellow white people are of no help - most of them are so terrified of offending anybody that they dance around the subject of race altogether.

and the real, most functional response from my perspective would be, "that's not my problem." At the same time as you ask for concern for your feelings you say you don't want to have to pussy-foot around mine.

There are Black folks that will work with you on that.

As for me, I'm acknowledging you want to be one of the good guys. But I'm also telling you I see NO FUNCTIONAL DIFFERENCE between any suggestions that leaves all the work of adjusting/being less sensitive/getting over it on Black folks or even the generalized minority.

Yes, denying white folks use of the word nigger - in the positive way the word is used - is divisive.

Whether you want to admit it or not, there is a whole generation of white folks who have grown up in the hip hop age. They call each other nigger - in the positive sense - all the time. Black AND white people call each other "my nigger" - meaning "my friend" or "my boy" - on a daily basis in every major city in America, and most of the minor ones as well.

I have personally been referred to as "my nigger" by black guys and white guys who are my friends. We've also called each other "bitch" and "punk-ass" and all sorts of other derogatory names that, understood in context, are not intended as epithets. When somebody, anybody, tells me it's not possible or permitted for me to use the word nigger, it almost makes me laugh. Let's bring it to the real, here. The cat's already out of the bag.

Make no mistake, I don't throw the word around when it's not cool. I almost never say it at all. I would never, ever, under any circumstances, use it at a racial slur. I'd get in the face of anyone I heard use it in that way.

Yes, it is divisive to say that only black people can use the word nigger. That is essentially saying that black people and white people can never attain a level of personal comfort with each other in which even that charged word is cool. I know for a FACT that is not true. Not only can it happen, but it happens all the time. It's not uncommon at all.

That's what is so weird for me about this discussion, and all discussions along these lines. So much of the rhetoric is plainly inconsistent with what I see around me every day.

All that said, man, I do hear what you are saying. I absolutely feel you when you say "that's not my problem" - that's exactly the way I feel about blacks who find racism lurking in every corner. I understand why that happens, I regret the history, I wish it hadn't happened that way, but it's really not my problem if some fool gets pissed at me for some ridiculous reason.

I honestly believe the best thing for me to do is keep on keeping on, doing my thing. When I say I don't want to have to pussy foot around your feelings, that doesn't mean I'm trying to be a jerk. You're certainly not pussy footing around my feelings, and I have no problem with that. This is what it means to approach each other as equals.

I certainly don't think black folks should "get over it." I think if I were black, I would probably be militant as hell. Since I'm not, and since each of us is blessed and cursed to be what we are, I fill the space of urging us all to remember that the future will not be the same as today. Let's be now what we wish for tomorrow.

I have no qualms with the way you've treated me. I thank you for calling me out - specifically in regard to my crack about your supposedly assuming the high ground. You got me, and I deserved it. Man, I may be 100% wrong about all of this stuff, but I swear to you I am trying. And even if I'm mostly wrong, I'm probably not 100% wrong, and there is some kernel of truth in what I say. Peace.