Sunday's duscussion on "religion and public life," according to David Brooks.

MR. RUSSERT: If abortion is outlawed in the state and abortions are performed by a doctor in that state, who's prosecuted? The doctor?

DR. LAND: The doctor.

MR. RUSSERT: The mother?

DR. LAND: I see mothers as victims. I've worked in crisis pregnancy centers. I've counseled women who'd had post-abortion traumatic stress syndrome. When an abortion takes place, there are at least two victims, the mother and the unborn child. I would prosecute the doctors. And we're ready to battle that out in every state and let the people's elected representatives make those decisions, not people in black robes.

REV. SHARPTON: I think that they will. Let me say this first. I think that we have the debate over civil liberties that may not, in my opinion, be given the kind of airing that we should. I may agree. You know, Reverend Falwell and I talk. I have two daughters. My marriage just ended a couple of years ago, we've changed, but I'm very much involved with my daughters, and I talk to both of my daughters. If my daughters had an unwanted pregnancy, I would probably advise, under any circumstances, not to get an abortion. But I don't want the state to make that decision for them. There's a difference in values and imposed values.

Second, in terms of the party reaching out, I think as we build a new party--there's a fight now for DNC chair, Wellington Webb. We're fighting with Congressman Greg Meeks and how active is Marjorie Harris and others that want to be key--that are reaching out to try and do this in a way that we speak to the American people but protect American values. I think the Democratic Party has to do that. But I don't think you can put aside that we do not have the right given personal conviction to make that law. I think that's un-Christian. Jesus didn't do it.

DR. LAND: Tim, that's the very same--that's the very same argument that slave owners made in the 1860s.

REV. SHARPTON: No, slave owners argued state's rights. What you're arguing is state's rights. That's what slave owners argued.

DR. LAND: No, no, no. Slave owners said, I wouldn't--people who supported slavery said, "I wouldn't own a slave, but I don't have the right to tell somebody else whether they can own slaves. That's imposing my values."

REV. SHARPTON: No.
[P6: No indeed. And I have no doubt way too many people think Dr. Land is telling the truth.]

DR. LAND: What they forgot was slaves were people, and unborn babies are people. And in this society, no human being should have an absolute right of life and death over another human being.

REV. SHARPTON: May I respond to that? Slave owners used what you're using. Let each state decide people's rights rather than have a federal government protect the rights of people.

DR. LAND: I did--I did my bachelor's...

REV. SHARPTON: And I think we're trying to see is the right way--I didn't interrupt you, Reverend.

DR. LAND: ...thesis on this and the Supreme Court said slaves weren't people.

REV. SHARPTON: Reverend, I think what we're trying to see is the right wing to try to bring this back to state's rights, and I think that state's rights is frightening to those that have been victims by it.

REV. WALLIS: You know, we're not--no one's pro-abortion. How do you prevent unwanted pregnancies? I'd like to find some common ground to work together to dramatically reduce the abortion rate. On so many of these issues, we get in the polarized, ideological debates and then we don't talk about to solve the problem.

DR. FALWELL: You're a preacher, aren't you?

REV. WALLIS: "How do we make abortion"--Democrats--"safe, legal and rare?" Well, they're keeping it legal, but let's try to make abortion truly rare in the society. That is a common ground around which I think a lot of people, pro-life and pro-choice could and should support.

DR. FALWELL: Jim, let me ask you a question. Did you vote for John Kerry?

REV. WALLIS: I did vote for John Kerry.

DR. FALWELL: Now, he is pro-choice. How can you as an ordained minister--you are an ordained minister, right?

REV. WALLIS: Jerry--Jerry...

DR. FALWELL: How could you vote for some--I wouldn't vote for my mother if she were pro-choice.

REV. WALLIS: Yeah. You endorsing George Bush. That's fine. But you also called--you ordained him. You said all Christians could only vote for him. That's ridiculous. There are Christians who voted for deep reasons of faith for both candidates.

REV. SHARPTON: It's strange to me, Reverend, how the right wing wants to privatize public policy and make public private lives. I mean, people have the right to their private decisions.

DR. FALWELL: No, I'm just trying--I'm trying to do what Martin Luther King did. I'm trying to...

REV. SHARPTON: Jesus--Jesus met the woman at the well. She was guilty of adultery. The state said she could be stoned. He stopped the stoning. You would condemn her for that.

DR. FALWELL: We have a home for unwed mothers.

REV. SHARPTON: He wasn't condoning adultery. He was not condoning adultery. He was saying that the state does not have that right to not say...

DR. FALWELL: You guys talk about that. We have a home for unwed mothers. We have a national adoption agency.

REV. SHARPTON: That was not just a mark. That was law on that day. That was law.

DR. FALWELL: You guys are great at spending somebody else's money.

REV. WALLIS: If we really decided as a religious conviction that life was sacred...

REV. SHARPTON: Well, I thought we decided that.

REV. WALLIS: ...it would change all of our politics. It would challenge right and left. I mean, I think there are secular fundamentalists--you're right, Tim--on the left, who don't want to talk the language of values or faith or even kind of moral politics. But there's also religious fundamentalism on the right which wants to narrow and restrict all of our ethics to one or two issues. And that we can't do. The Catholic bishops get it right, this consistent ethical right. Capital punishment...

DR. FALWELL: That means John Paul II has it wrong, right?

REV. WALLIS: Well, the pope was against the war in Iraq. The pope was against President Bush on the war in Iraq. War and peace is a life issue, too. Social justice is a moral issue, too.

DR. FALWELL: Anyone who takes the Bible seriously believes that family...

REV. WALLIS: If we could define these more broadly...

DR. FALWELL: ...is one man married to one woman. Anyone who takes the Bible seriously. Anyone who takes the Bible seriously believes that life is sacred from conception on.

REV. SHARPTON: And anyone that takes the Bible seriously gives people the right to disagree even with their beliefs. This country was founded with freedom of religion. It is unpatriotic to impose...

DR. FALWELL: Well, then that's where we want to--why were you against slavery? Why were you against slavery?

REV. SHARPTON: I was against slavery because slavery imposed the will of some on others.

DR. LAND: Well, if there's no demand, than it's the same thing.