Prometheus 6

While it may true that the .50 BMG rifle has probably never been used to commit a felony in the United States it is true that guns using .50 caliber shells have been used to kill black people in this country. Although none of the National Guardsmen who actually fired these rounds at unarmed civilians during the so-called Detroit riots were ever charged with a crime it is hard to believe that the indiscriminate use of .50 caliber machine guns was ever justified. In my view, .50 caliber weapons have already been used to terrorize and kill Americans. They just happened to be of the colored persuasion, though.

I feel this weapon falls in the Thompson submachine gun category. Civilization didn't collapse because it was banned. Cops don't need them either.

But it doesn't matter much anyway. There's a ton of them things on the street right now...there was a run on them in Cali just before the ban went into effect. And folks will just drive to Nevada or something if they missed out.

Well, I believe that as long as the government owns guns then the people who live under that government should be allowed to own guns but I think a lot of folks in this country have a sickness about the need own weapons like guns and they are dangerously close to lunacy.

I feel this weapon falls in the Thompson submachine gun category. Civilization didn't collapse because it was banned.

The only effective difference between the 50 caliber cartridge and an ordinary high powered rifle cartridge is its range. It's more powerful, yes, but the ordinary cartridge is plenty powerful enough to kill if delivered to the target. The 50 BMG is a single shot rifle.

The Thompson maxes out in almost an exactly opposing way. The cartridge, the familiar .45 automatic pistol cartridge, has a minimal range. The Thompson had as its maxed out axis the ability to deliver a lot of firepower into a local group of people. Utility wise, it shares space with the sawed off shotgun.

Treating the 50 BMG as some special weapon is an example of gun paranioa (as shown by the lack of any demonstrable problem). The people who are attracted to this kind of weapon are attracted to the ability to accurately place a bullet over long range. It's a serious sport. I don't dispute that there are some kinds of weapon-attraction combinations which bear special attention, because the combination correlates with anti-social behavior (the Thompson, for one). This one just isn't among them--rather that opposite. The attraction to the weapon is not based on anti-social fantasies of any kind.

(No, I don't know anyone who owns one. I can understand the attraction, however.)

See the first "Quote of note."

If I made a claim as vague as that, you'd be all over me like the proverbial flies.

Your president made an even vaguer claim and took the country to war. (I'm just ribbing you a little bit.)

If I made a claim as vague as that, you'd be all over me like the proverbial flies.

Only if it were wrong.

Your president made an even vaguer claim and took the country to war. (I'm just ribbing you a little bit.)

The problem with the quote is that it's long on impication and short on evidence or even analysis. "we've found a nexus". What does that mean? Whatever the hell the speaker wants it to mean. For example, if yonder bad guy is discovered to have a magazine which includes an advertisement for a 50 BMG, there's our nexus.

Correct, your president offered such crap in lieu of real arguments when justifying the Iraqi war. I'm with you, PT. If it were you and me, we'd not have been in this war with that justification.

So yes. There is a clear nexus betweeen GW Bush and those trying to outlaw the 50 BMG.

Okay, dwshelf, but I don't think that we, i.e., the United States, should be at war even if Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. If the U.N. had wanted to go war, maybe, but I want no part of the standard liberal apologia and excuses as exemplified by a certain junior Senator from Massachusetts.

Let's cut to the chase. I own guns. A few of them have been in my family since at least the 1860s. I think every American has a right to own a gun and I have thought so since the 1960s when I was a teenager. (I don't hunt and have no interest in the sport. I would prefer to look at birds and other animals through binoculars rather than telescoped lenses.) I don't think, though, that given the high level of gun violence that exist within our society today that folks should be allowed to purchase .50 caliber rifles unless they can offer an extremely good reason for wanting to own one, say, like protecting oneself from marauding sabre tooth tigers, werewolves or Freddy Kruger. (A real life terrorist can be felled with a well placed shot from a bolt action .22 caliber rifle, trust me.)

I live today in a state that is heavily populated by a lot of folks who are rabidly mad about guns. They and a majority of the state legislature believe that any resident citizen of this Commonwealth who is otherwise qualified is entitled to purchase as many handguns as he or she desires as often as he or she desires. One of the unintended consequences of this insane policy is that Camden, New Jersey is now considered by researchers to be the most violent city in America. Why? Because, although New Jersey has strict gun control laws, the City and County of Philadelphia and the surrounding counties do not. Consequently, there is a thriving underground and illegal gun buyers market in Camden which is supplied by individuals and gangs who buy guns in Philadelphia and other nearby Pennsylvania counties and sell them in Camden. This same legislature of brain donors has also forbidden Philadelphia from enacting prudent gun control laws too. I am under no illusion that these same .50 caliber rifles would become part of the illegal gun market in Camden once they become generally available in this area. The prospect of teenage gang bangers having access to .50 caliber rifles doesn't lead me to think that Camden's efforts to rebuild itself will have much chance of success.

The prospect of teenage gang bangers having access to .50 caliber rifles doesn't lead me to think that Camden's efforts to rebuild itself will have much chance of success.

You seen one of these things, PT? They're huge. Single shot. Not much use to a gang banger.

Here's some pictures and prices

I appreciate the fact that you think these kids would be more rationally disposed with regard to their firearms choices but I suspect that the prospect of owning a rifle as powerful as the .50-caliber BMG would be a massive ego massage much like buying a Cadillac Escalade with $5,000 worth of rims. I'm sure that only a few of these kids and young adults could afford to buy a BMG rifle but if a gang acquired one and word got around then I'm sure that other gangs would be looking to increase their firepower too.

But not only would that be irrational, it would be ineffective. They're not particularly powerful, in the sense that one shot can do much. I think some of their opponents misrepresent this, suggesting that they're like a small tank round.

They have long range, and that's about the extent of their unique qualities. Any gang banger in the country could extend their lethal range by the acquisition of an ordinary deer hunting rifle, and yet such weapons are very rare in that context.

Folks who can't figure out how to avoid doing violence in their grandmother's neighborhoods or who shoot school children while doing drive-bys are irrational. (The Mafia figured this out many, many decades ago. As awful as John Gotti and his cronies were they did not shoot at their adversaries in front of school children.) One shot from a .50 caliber rifle can kill you. Your death may not require a great deal of cosmetic work by the undertaker but you would still be quite dead. I think you are understating the severity of the damage one of these guns can do. Yes, I think the handgun is the preferred weapon of choice among gang bangers but I think a .50 caliber long bore rifle has a certain cachet that is irresistible to certain males.

it's the Barrett DW, one in the pipe, seven in the clip, semi-automatic and at that calibre pretty damn awesome continuity of fire -I know, I've shot this weapon a few times myself.

BMG=Browning Machine Gun=Big Motherfucking Gun (:

The clowns I see here at gunshows in the heartland don't plump $8K exclusively for longrange sportshooting. Their thought tends to run along the lines of thicknesses of metal plate or engine blocks penetrated by the BMG.

Same axis with the .50 cal Desert Eagle, about the most ridiculous handgun you'd ever care to see, much less shoot. There is no credible need for these weapons, but like Phil Gramm said,

"I've got more guns than I need, but not nearly as many as I want!"

it's the Barrett DW, one in the pipe, seven in the clip, semi-automatic and at that calibre pretty damn awesome continuity of fire -I know, I've shot this weapon a few times myself.

Ok. They're not all single shot.

BMG=Browning Machine Gun=Big Motherfucking Gun (:

There's no doubt they're all big.

Same axis with the .50 cal Desert Eagle, about the most ridiculous handgun you'd ever care to see, much less shoot.

It's hard to imagine this one being controllable enough in rapid fire to be useful. There's a reason why police prefer 9mm to the larger cartridges, involving the likelihood of hitting the target.

Perhaps it should also be pointed out, not for you cnulan, that the .50 Desert Eagle is only numerically similar to the .50 BMG. The cartridge is maybe 1/10 the volume of the .50 BMG.

But not only would that be irrational, it would be ineffective. They're not particularly powerful, in the sense that one shot can do much. I think some of their opponents misrepresent this, suggesting that they're like a small tank round.

They are precisely like a small tank round. Using armor piercing incendiary explosive rounds, readily available at gun shows, you can do exactly what the original designers of the BMG had in mind with this small piece of field artillery, namely you can take out armored personnel carriers, aircraft, and big trucks - matter of fact, the BMG was intended as point anti-aircraft weapon and has an M63 mount for exactly that purpose. Against a standard patrol car, game, set, and match. Now I'm not claiming the Barrett was intended to duplicate the BMG, but with 8 rounds at a go, using the proper ammunition, you can do bursty type damage like the BMG, and, still have deadly penetration and accuracy out to 2000 yards. A nice discussion of Barrett capabilities here;

Raufoss Multipurpose (Armor-piercing, explosive, incendiary) Ammunition. The crown jewel of 50 caliber sniper rifle ammunition is the Raufoss multi-purpose round, developed by a Norwegian company and manufactured under license by several companies, including Winchester. Said by experts to be the most popular round with U.S. military snipers, it was used to devastating effect by U.S. forces in the 1991 Gulf War.

It's hard to imagine this one being controllable enough in rapid fire to be useful. There's a reason why police prefer 9mm to the larger cartridges, involving the likelihood of hitting the target.

The vast majority of cops don't cycle enough rounds regularly to be considered decent marksmen either. So spray and pray with 18 round clips is fairly typical gun-do for target acquisition by cops. Furthermore, using a 9mm 128 grain P+P hydroshock, you get about the maximum possible energy transfer center mass, so that the target receives the maximum amount of *stopping power* from the round. Stopping power is the priority consideration for law enforcement. Finally, using the hydroshock rounds, you tend to minimize unwanted riccochet into bystanders.

Perhaps it should also be pointed out, not for you cnulan, that the .50 Desert Eagle is only numerically similar to the .50 BMG. The cartridge is maybe 1/10 the volume of the .50 BMG.

I'll never forget the first time I shot a Desert Eagle .44 Mag. That was hands down the most unpleasant handgun I've ever shot, and I've shot a .44 Mag Ruger Blackhawk since I was a teenager. I can't imagine why anybody would want to bother to try to shoot the .50 Cal other than for silly twisted bragging rights not to mention the exhorbitant cost of $1+ per round of ammo. Even reloaders don't really economize with that puppy. Just plain stoopid in my book.

I can't imagine why anybody would want to bother to try to shoot the .50 Cal other than for silly twisted bragging rights not to mention the exhorbitant cost of $1+ per round of ammo.

I've never shot one, but I was guessing that to be the case.

I agree, no one needs an explosive, incendiary bullet. That is one of those things which appeals to the wrong sort of crowd.

Let's not forget that blowing $1.00 a pop for a bullet means little to folks who are involved in a "cop and blow" lifestyle. The money comes easy and it goes easy and when it goes you go get some more. This applies to gang bangers and Mafia captains. In any case, we have to minimize the capability of criminals and other sociopaths from acquiring these kinds of weapons or they'll turn every city and town into a reality-based version of Robocop.