Where there's a Will there's a won't

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Not a catchy a phrase as "welfare reform," I know. But I don't want to talk about welfare reform. I want to talk about helping people get into the economic mainstream.

I've had a few days to consider why George Will wrote that editorial that annoyed me so much and I think I figured out why.

The book that set him off, American Dream: Three Women, Ten Kids, and a Nation's Drive to End Welfare by Jason Deparle, is an indictment of the assumptions that underlay much of the thinking in "welfare reform" as well as its actual implementation. You see, "welfare reform" was punitive, not supportive, in nature and it turns out all the assumptions that justified that punitive nature are in error. The proof of the error is simple: it didn't work.

Our most recent national tactic, after decades of failed federal-assistance programs, is what supporters see as a tough-love approach. Its centerpiece: “The Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act,” passed by Congress and signed into law by President Bill Clinton in October 1996. This “welfare reform” act shifted authority for administering public assistance to the individual states. Broadly, it ended the concept of “entitlements,” placing strict lifetime limits on the receipt of benefits and requiring recipients to work in exchange for assistance. The rationale is to force people now getting welfare — mostly women, many of them unmarried and almost all with dependent children — to take responsibility for working themselves out of poverty.

In narrow economic terms, the act has been a striking success. Between 1995 and 2000, the national welfare rolls were reduced by half. Over a million young mothers found at least part-time employment. On the other hand, two-thirds of these former welfare recipients report earnings that are below poverty level. And 40 percent of those women who have been removed from the rolls have not managed to find jobs.

So the debate continues. Is welfare reform really helping to eradicate poverty? What kind of impact, positive or negative, is this major shift in policy having on the lives of struggling families?

To come up with any kind of meaningful answer, Burton argues, you have to dig beyond the political rhetoric and the stereotypes. You have to observe, as closely as possible, the complex reality of people’s lives.

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Posted by Prometheus 6 on January 7, 2005 - 6:23pm :: Economics | Race and Identity
 
 

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"Welfare reform" was never about real reform, but about incorporating conservative morality into the institution of welfare, and kicking out or ending welfare to as many people as possible. I worked with the Missouri legislature on welfare reform issues, and studied TANF extensively. It was frightening, how many options states were given to penalize and terminate recipients for behaviors; e.g., anyone who uses drugs can be immediately terminated from eligibility, regardless of whether they seek treatment. At the same time these new, stricter rules were being imposed, most states were cutting social services, so ineligible recipients were left pretty much without a safety net. There were no funds to provide job training, transportation, or child care, essentials for single-parent households pursing work after long periods of unemployment. The punitive nature of the "reform" was striking, but Democrats were apparently too much enthralled by the Big Dog's leadership to tell him he was full of shit on this one, let the Republican Congress truly fuck things up. I just pray I never have to get welfare.

Posted by  Anonymous (not verified) on January 8, 2005 - 11:04pm.

But Mr. Deparle's American Dream: Three Women, Ten Kids, and a Nation's Drive to End Welfare has as its heroine a woman who is clearly a good person, clearly hard working and willing to work, who clearly shows the walls in front of the poor aren't removed by welfare or the type of job you get from a a welfare-to-work program.

I'd like to buy your original positioning of the question, p6. I want to talk about helping people get into the economic mainstream.

In fact, I do buy it.

However, we might or might not agree that it includes progress as well as out and out success.

Here's a different question:
Has Ms. Jobe, and her children, made progress toward joining the economic mainstream simply by being off welfare?

Here's a related claim.

Growing up in a long term welfare family is devastating to the self confidence of the children. Growing up in what we call a working poor family is highly motivating. Night and day.

With significant likelihood, the children of working poor families exceed the economic achievements of their parents, sometimes dramatically. With significant likelihood, the children of welfare families repeat the economic status of their parents.

Earning money is inherently respect building.
Collecting welfare as a way of life is inherently degrading.
Kids sort that out.

I'd add that kids are not traumatized by short term events, even when they last a few years. They tend to remember the good times and forget the bad. This is especially true when the good times follow the bad times. The devastation comes when there are no good times to recall.

Posted by  dwshelf on January 9, 2005 - 9:52am.

Has Ms. Jobe, and her children, made progress toward joining the economic mainstream simply by being off welfare?

Obviously, no.

Growing up in a long term welfare family is devastating to the self confidence of the children.

Unfortunately, you start out with an assertion that is a fundamental error.

Posted by  Prometheus 6 on January 9, 2005 - 9:59am.

Unfortunately, you start out with an assertion that is a fundamental error.

Actually, I had two assertions there.

1. Children raise in long term welfare homes do radically worse, economically, that children raised in working poor homes.

2. The reason for this is that accepting welfare as a way of life is degrading, and the children figure it out: their parent(s) believes that the best available choice is life long degradation.

Posted by  dwshelf on January 9, 2005 - 10:16pm.

Have you noticed yet that I only respond to what you actually wrote?

Anyway...

1. Children raise in long term welfare homes do radically worse, economically, that children raised in working poor homes.

The whole point of Deparle's book and all the research I linked to is that this statement is wrong. They do about the same.

The reason for this is that accepting welfare as a way of life is degrading, and the children figure it out: their parent(s) believes that the best available choice is life long degradation.

Being poor is degrading only in the eyes of those who are not poor.

You shuld not try to build a position based on such significant error.

Posted by  Prometheus 6 on January 10, 2005 - 12:58am.

Have you noticed yet that I only respond to what you actually wrote?

I did, but I didn't know what it was you were disagreeing with. Now I know.

The whole point of Deparle's book and all the research I linked to is that this statement is wrong. They do about the same.

I understood the evidence that many of the adults in these situations didn't materially improve with respect to welfare. Given that the whole story involves changes during the last 15 years, there is no modern evidence. We do have the comparison of pre-federal welfare to post federal welfare era, which demonstrates my claim.

Being poor is degrading only in the eyes of those who are not poor.

I didn't suggest that being poor is degrading at all. Living a life of welfare is degrading.

Posted by  dwshelf on January 10, 2005 - 6:23am.

Given that the whole story involves changes during the last 15 years, there is no modern evidence.

What??

We are judging the impact of policies implemented in the last 15 years or less.

You're using "modern" in a way I'm unfamiliar with.

Living a life of welfare is degrading.

Being on welfare is degrading only in the eyes of those who are not on welfare.

I don't know what you mean by "Living a life of welfare." I suspect you mean "living the way I think people on welfare live and having the values I assume one MUST have if they are on welfare."

Posted by  Prometheus 6 on January 10, 2005 - 11:05am.

We are judging the impact of policies implemented in the last 15 years or less.

Correct. As I recall, Ms. Jobe for example was put on a five year plan. No welfare after five years.

No one's disputing that lots of people are in the boat with Ms. Jobe, not particularly better off after going to work. The comparision I suggest is that of children which were raised in a non-welfare, working poor family after the age of maybe 13, as compared to children raised in a home where welfare existed for the entire childhood.

Now we can't look for economic success at 19, damn few kids have accomplished much at 19. By 30 we pretty well know.

As they say, the devil's in the details. Measuring kids at 21 isn't meaningful, but if it's all you can do, should you report the results anyway?

What we can flat observe is that Black America, to be general, was collectively progressing in 1964. By 1975, we see an entirely different phenomenom, a polarization. Many Blacks are making great progress, and become the current black middle class, while many others seem stuck in permanent cultural purgatory, the welfare cycle.

The welfare cycle is a fact. That it didn't significantly exist before federal welfare is a fact.

don't know what you mean by "Living a life of welfare." I suspect you mean "living the way I think people on welfare live and having the values I assume one MUST have if they are on welfare."

It's almost completely independent of "family values". People on welfare their entire lives are consuming resources provided by others. That's degrading, and from the inside. That degradation is a crucial element of the welfare cycle, because the kids observe it. We could note that people who have no potential to work, because of medical issues, don't participate in the same way at all.

We're also going to agree that plenty of Whites are participating in the welfare cycle. This isn't a "Black problem", the mechanism is exactly the same. The only difference seems to be less concentration of people on the welfare cycle.

Posted by  dwshelf on January 10, 2005 - 5:54pm.

It's almost completely independent of "family values". People on welfare their entire lives are consuming resources provided by others. That's degrading, and from the inside.

I thought so. It's about how you would feel if it were you.

As for the rest, it's pretty obvious you don't know any of the people you're talking about. I do.

Posted by  Prometheus 6 on January 10, 2005 - 9:56pm.

It's about how you would feel if it were you.

More precisely, it's how I felt when it was me.

Posted by  dwshelf on January 11, 2005 - 12:23am.

Would you call yourself typical?

Posted by  Prometheus 6 on January 11, 2005 - 1:43am.

Would you say it would be typical to live a life on welfare and suffer no psychological damage?

More importantly, would you say that kids could be raised seeing no family income beyond welfare, and seeing no obvious reason why their parent couldn't work, and not be facing an colossal obstacle in joining regular life?

I'm like you, p6. In most ways, typical. In some ways, so far off typical that one could marvel at the oddity. Sometimes I've been confused as to which is which, but not usually.

Posted by  dwshelf on January 11, 2005 - 8:21am.

Would you say it would be typical to live a life on welfare and suffer no psychological damage?

Yes.

More importantly, would you say that kids could be raised seeing no family income beyond welfare, and seeing no obvious reason why their parent couldn't work, and not be facing an colossal obstacle in joining regular life?

Yes. Look at them West Virginia coal miners and family though their kids are given an obvious reason: nigras "taking their job"...a side benefit of a racist society is having built-in excuses and/or built-in support. Either will help keep one's spirit intact...both will enable one to get out of the hole.

One's parents' financial condition has a lot less bearing on this than the belief you have options. What do you think all that "role model" noise is about?

Plus you're missing a vital bit of information: people get bored. People want something to do, and all else being equal would rather be paid to do it than not.

Posted by  Prometheus 6 on January 11, 2005 - 9:40am.

We may be to a temporary stall here, p6.

But one place where we agree:

One's parents' financial condition has a lot less bearing on this than the belief you have options.

I agree, completely.

However, to focus on men for the moment, an adolescent young man looks into life with a natural belief that he is limited to the achievements of his father. By default, he doesn't see better options.

The default can be mitigated, but not eliminated, during the crucial years the young man is figuring out whether he's going to choose a successful option. This mitigation can come from outsiders, but it comes primarily from people the young man respects in a family sense.

I don't think we'll disagree, economic failures have very few experiences to form the basis of a good effort to extend the young man's options. Options, to be meaningful, require a bit of understanding of what the option means when you get there, and a somewhat visible path which looks plausible. Telling a young man "you can be anything you want" is vaguely good, but it doesn't go very far. Explaining the nature, the rewards and work, of being an accountant, or plumber, and how to get there is far more useful. In an extended family, sometimes the other family members can step up to that role. But if no one does, the young man simply will not believe he has very many options.

Lastly, "people not like us are taking your job" is about as wise advice as "most people like you end up in prison". Horrible parenting. I'm not disputing that it happens, I just hope there's someone around that the kid can learn something different from. Kids do reasonably well sorting out really bad parenting from good parenting.

Posted by  dwshelf on January 11, 2005 - 5:22pm.

However, to focus on men for the moment, an adolescent young man looks into life with a natural belief that he is limited to the achievements of his father. By default, he doesn't see better options.

That's an element of white folks' collectivity.

Black folks been escaping slavery for too long to believe that.

Posted by  Prometheus 6 on January 11, 2005 - 6:00pm.

Okay, maybe that deserves a little more.

"I want my kids to have the things I didn't."

And the progress everyone insists we recognize is, to Black folks in general, proof that you can do better than your father.

Posted by  Prometheus 6 on January 11, 2005 - 6:04pm.

Of course you can.

Moderately achieving fathers have ended up with better achieving sons for most of the last 100 years.

It's common, normal even.

But it requires education, in the home sense. The young man needs to be educated about the potential options. The young man needs to be convinced that he can. Without exposure to the options, almost always by other nearby adults, he will look to what he sees, and feel limited to something similar.

That sort of positive education is a lot more likely in a functional family which is participating in the world. It's one of the reasons why making the first steps forward is so crucial.

Posted by  dwshelf on January 11, 2005 - 11:38pm.

That sort of positive education is a lot more likely in a functional family which is participating in the world.

It would be even more likely in a non-racist society...or even a society that admits its racism. Assuming you are right (which I do not), what do you think the impact of seeing folks limited by racism combined with an absolute denial of responsibility by the racists will be on a young person's belief in possibilities?

Posted by  Prometheus 6 on January 12, 2005 - 12:32am.

what do you think the impact of seeing folks limited by racism combined with an absolute denial of responsibility by the racists will be on a young person's belief in possibilities?

That could never be positive, but by many examples local to anyone, it is not definitive.

I can see how racism saps confidence. Why is denial of racism offered as equally repressive?

Posted by  dwshelf on January 12, 2005 - 1:37am.

Experiences of Racism Among African American Parents and the Mental Health of Their Preschool-Aged Children

Margaret O'Brien Caughy, ScD, Patricia J. O'Campo, PhD and Carles Muntaner, MD, PhD

Results. Parents who denied experiences of racism also reported
higher rates of behavior problems among their preschool-aged children.
For families living in neighborhoods characterized by fear of
victimization, parents who actively coped with racism experiences by
confronting the person involved or taking some sort of action in
response to racism reported lower rates of anxiety and depression for
their preschool-aged children.

Conclusions. Experiences of and responses to racism among African
American parents have important effects on the well-being of their
young children.

As you said, kids ain't stupid. They know when something isn't right.

Posted by  Prometheus 6 on January 12, 2005 - 4:25am.

That makes sense P6, but here's the basis of my inquiry:

what do you think the impact of seeing folks limited by racism combined with an absolute denial of responsibility by the racists will be on a young person's belief in possibilities?

I wouldn't expect black people to deny racism to their children.

But (by my intuitive, limited analysis), the fact that whites deny racism would seem to be a relatively minor issue.

Posted by  dwshelf on January 12, 2005 - 5:39pm.

the fact that whites deny racism would seem to be a relatively minor issue.

It's THE MAJOR issue.

Whites denying racism means there is no chance of racism ending.

None.

Which means all the negative health and economic impacts continue. And they will continue to see themselves blamed for it by white people.

Which will make them not like you. At all.

Nasty feedback cycle that only white society can break.

Posted by  Prometheus 6 on January 12, 2005 - 7:39pm.

Ok. I now see the argument, grasp the concept.

Posted by  dwshelf on January 13, 2005 - 1:15am.