Prometheus 6

On a much, much lower frequency I am damn tired of seeing Hollywood films set in the 1950s or 1960s that use songs from rhythm and blues artists in the soundtrack when you know damn well that the suburban-based characters in these films weren't listening to these singers and musicians. Somebody, somewhere in the United States bought al those Patti Page, Georgia Gibbs, Perry Como and the Crew Cuts records and I know it wasn't folks in my family or neighborhood.

I forgot to add the immortal Pat Boone to the list. For once in my life I would love to see a film depicting white teenagers dancing to Pat Boone singing "Blueberry Hill." Hollywood's new elite constantly wants to convey that all of America was grooving to R&B and soul music during from the mid-1950s to 1970 or so.

There's a grain of truth in what you say PT, but it wasn't that white people didn't listen to black music.

Living in small town, I didn't even know some of the music I listened to was by blacks.

In particular, I liked the Four Tops. It was years before I knew they were black.

It might not have been R&B, but did folks in your neighborhood listen to the Coasters?

DW - In the first place there is more than a grain of truth in what I wrote. I am referring to a period of time before you were born. I wasn't arguing that no white person in America ever heard of or listened to R&B. What I was referring to is that Hollywood's use of this music in the soundtracks of its films tends to convey the sense that this particular genre of music was being listened to by blacks and whites all over the country. This is simply not true. Any cursory or in-depth look at the pop hit lists from the 1950s shows this to be true.

In the case of Motown's recording artists it is probably true to a great degree but I doubt that even today you are going to hear the Miracles singing "Who's Loving You" or "You've Really Got A Hold On Me" or Brenda Holloway's "Every Little Bit Hurts" being played on a radio station that features a mainstream oldies format because these songs sound too black. (We called it "Turn-the-blue-lamp-on-in-the-basement-music." )

Your response to the Four Tops was precisely the effect that Barry Gordy and his producers wanted to achieve. I'm not knocking Gordy but he didn't want you, i.e., white Americans to think that you were listening to black music when you heard his company's records and he largely succeeded in pulling it off. I knew, however, that the Four Tops were black the moment I heard the opening downbeat to "Baby, I Need Your Loving." (Their music rolled downhill after that triumph and even today I can't stand to listen to their biggest hit which was "I Can't Help Myself".)

Folks in my neighborhood listened to the Coasters but they were also buying records by Johnny Ace, Ruth Brown, Roy Milton, Laverne Baker, Ray Charles, Bobby "Blue" Bland, Percy Mayfield, Etta James, early James Brown, Esther Phillips etc.

Thanks, PT. As usual, I come away from reading your response with a richer perspective than before.

And agreed, what you might call hard core black musing was largely unappreciated by white America.

I was aware of, for example, the management of the Supremes to homogenize them to expand the audience.

If you care to though PT, could you explain how this went. I hadn't much thought of it until today, and I now recognize that my understanding is a bit weak.

The oldest black singers I liked from day one were the Mills Brothers. Now the Mills Brothers weren't performing black music, and I always understood that. Neither did Nat King Cole or the Drifters.

So we come to the Four Tops (and the more important Supremes). We now seem them as black music tamed down for a white audience, as compared to black people performing white music. As a kid, without benefit of any analysis whatsoever, I just liked what I liked, and didn't really understand that there was a difference.

When I take a guess at what happened, I end up with something like "whites liked smooth lyrics (a la Bing Crosby), blacks preferred a harsher sound (I'm not good enough to supply an example). As the '50s progressed, hi-tech production became more and more important, creating a far more complex sound than could be done in 1949, a sound which was attractive to audiences of all races. This "witening down" of the sound took advantage of the technological advances, yielding a softer, complex sound which wasn't particularly recogniseable by whites as a black sound, but the songs and general tunes were derived from black roots.

Something like that?

Was this new whitened sound not attractive to a black audience as well?

I realize that it lacks the excitement of a political debate, but I also enjoy discussing music. Any chance for an open thread?

Sure.

"And agreed, what you might call hard core black musing was largely unappreciated by white America."

True, but what annoys me is the mythic past that Hollywood film makers create by using music that many, although not all, characters in their period films weren't listening to on a daily basis. Much of the music that we know as being R&B was simply not played on radio stations that had predominantly white listners in their audience. Again, who purchased those millions of records featuring performers like Gale Storm (the star of the television sit-com "My Little Margie) singing songs like Little Richard's "I Hear You Knocking (But You Can't Come In)"

"I was aware of, for example, the management of the Supremes to homogenize them to expand the audience."

I would never say that the Supremes were homogenized. They and their managers and recording company saw them, for example, as Las Vegas material and to do gigs there and be successful it meant that they would have to affect a certain look and be willing to incorporate certain songs into their repertoire. By the way, the two biggest Supremes fans I ever knew were two black drag queens who lived in the two unit apartment building next door to my family's house. They loved everything about the Supremes including the wigs, false eyelashes, sequin gowns and high heel shoes. They were good brothers and good neighbors.

"If you care to though PT, could you explain how this went. I hadn't much thought of it until today, and I now recognize that my understanding is a bit weak."

The types of songs the Supremes sang changed and the style in which they sung these songs differed from their earlier recordings. Before the Supremes had a hit record they recorded a tune called "Let Me Go The Right Way". At this point you can still hear their church-blues-based roots in their vocalizations but three years later all of those effects had been buried.

"The oldest black singers I liked from day one were the Mills Brothers. Now the Mills Brothers weren't performing black music, and I always understood that. Neither did Nat King Cole or the Drifters."

The Mills Brothers did a lot of pop tunes because that's where the money was but black folks of a certain generation and age loved the Mills Brothers. It didn't matter what they sang: they were considered part of the creme de la creme of black entertainers. The same goes for Nat "King" Cole. My paternal and maternal uncles dug him, in part, because the trio that he fronted during the 1940s was a superb jazz group. Nat's move into the pop mainstream has tended to obscure the fact he was an extremely talented jazz pianist. I have some recordings that he did with Lester Young that are simply marvelous."

"So we come to the Four Tops (and the more important Supremes). We now seem them as black music tamed down for a white audience, as compared to black people performing white music. As a kid, without benefit of any analysis whatsoever, I just liked what I liked, and didn't really understand that there was a difference."

That's how anyone should hear music. You like what you hear or you don't like what you hear. The Four Tops and the Supremes didn't throw off their blackness. They and their songwriters and producers simply made it irrelevant. Part of they did this is by stripping their music of blues feelings or technically speaking, blues changes. The Memphis-based Stax Music went in the opposite direction. Stax's artists - Otis Redding, Wilson Pickett, Solomon Burke and Carla Thomas - stayed in the blues and soul pocket. Stax defined its audience as those who wanted to hear R&B and Soul music. Motown aimed to be the "Sound of Young America". Each succeeded on their own terms."

"When I take a guess at what happened, I end up with something like "whites liked smooth lyrics (a la Bing Crosby), blacks preferred a harsher sound (I'm not good enough to supply an example)."

Not exactly. No band could sound as creamy and rich as Duke Ellington's band. I'll take this point up later.

"As the '50s progressed, hi-tech production became more and more important, creating a far more complex sound than could be done in 1949, a sound which was attractive to audiences of all races. This "witening down" of the sound took advantage of the technological advances, yielding a softer, complex sound which wasn't particularly recogniseable by whites as a black sound, but the songs and general tunes were derived from black roots."

I'll address this later, too.

"Was this new whitened sound not attractive to a black audience as well?"

In some cases and for some black audiences. More later.

More later.

Thank you PT.

I have a few questions, but I'l hold them until later.

I have a feeling this is going to be expensive. I'm going to be buying some more music.

If you could nominate one CD for me to buy from before 1965, what would it be? Well, how about two?

Buy Miles Davis' "Kind of Blue". And buy Ashely Kahn's book about the making of the album. "Kind of Blue" is one of the seminal musical recordings of the 20th Century and the best selling jazz album of all time. It has never been out of print despite the fact that it was recorded more than 40 years ago. Make sure that you buy the CD that contains two takes of "Flamenco Sketches". Play them back-to-back more than once so that you can begin to appreciate the art of musical improvisation, which is the essence of jazz.

An interesting album that I consider to be a unrecognized masterpiece is John Handy's Live in Monterey. The featured track, which is about 20 minutes long, is called "If Only We Knew". The music critics, many of whom had their heads stuck up their behinds, labeled this music as "hippie jazz" but they didn't know what they were talking about. John Handy, who now eaches at the California State University at San Francisco, is a consummate musician.

If soul music and blues are more to your liking try James Brown's "Live At The Apollo" or B.B King's live gig at the Regal with members of the Couint Basie Band.

Ok. I bought "Kind of Blue" with these tracks:
So What - 9:25
Freddie Freeloader - 9:49
Blue in Green - 5:37
All Blues - 11:35
Flamenco Sketches - 9:26
Flamenco Sketches - 9:31

I wasn't able to find John Handy Live in Monterey. I find "Live at Joshi's Nightspot", claimed "in the spirit of Monterey".

Go online at Tower Records and purchase the actual CD. ITunes or whatever service you are using wouldn't have Handy's album in its database or library because the twenty-somethings who handle their music purchases haven't heard of it because the writers at the jazz magazines they read don't even know of its existence or are too busy trying to impress people with their knowledge of hardbop.

Go online at Tower Records and purchase the actual CD.

Done. The usual online place I buy music, a competitor to Tower, doesn't list it, not that they're twenty-somethings, but that they don't have it in their supply channels. I'm not naming them because I have a personal association.