Every so often something happens that it is not useful to look at in the old standard ways

by Prometheus 6
May 2, 2005 - 12:29pm.
on Random rant

Quote of note:

And here we sit wondering how we would have controlled a 5-year-old child instead of asking ourselves how we can reconnect the disaffected among us -- even how we might mend the potentially tragic relationship between this child and her 31-year-old single mother.

...Can't we let this 5-year-old be our miner's canary -- a warning to us about the growing toxicity of our society?

We could do these things, of course. But we probably won't. We'll use this sad case to spur our own hobby horses: to extend civil liberties to children, to promote charter schools or vouchers, to argue that the police are racists, and to claim that teachers are either unprepared or underpaid.

And -- oh, yes -- for money. The mother whose child seems so obviously headed for trouble found herself a lawyer.

Society's Toxins, Caught on Tape
By William Raspberry
Monday, May 2, 2005; Page A17

It's funny how the videotapes have divided us. Some of us saw the footage of the 5-year-old girl gone berserk in her St. Petersburg, Fla., classroom and decided we'd been too harsh in our judgment of the school officials for calling the police. Others saw the cops handcuffing the tiny child and decided it was the grown-ups who had gone nuts.

I look at the tape and tremble for fear that I'm looking at a fledgling outlaw whose path, if uninterrupted, could land her in jail -- or worse. And it can't be a 5-year-old's fault.

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Submitted by Ben G. on May 3, 2005 - 3:49am.
I don't really see Raspberry as looking at this in a new way. Like A LOT of other people, he's blaming the girl and the mother and making assumptions about their relationship and family life—with no information to speak of save the video tape, which, he's right to point out, does nothing but invite speculation.

He then pontificates about schools and teachers and children as general things. But what we do have information about is how in FL they have a documented problem with arresting children under 12 and with Black kids being grossly overrepresented among the small children who are arrested.

And it's standard procedure to handcuff children in Florida, even in non "criminal" contexts. And there's a class action suit against the Pinellas County (where the incident occurred) schools for not educating Black children. And there have been some other incidents of abusive treatment of Black kids in a Pinellas County school.

My point here is there is lots of info on what's wrong with the schools and cops in Pinellas County, FL, and hardly anybody is talking about that. Meanwhile there is next to no information abou the girl and her mother, yet everyone has an opinion about the mothers' parenting and the girl's behavior, diagnosis, etc.

(By the way, I like the new design and layout. Much easier to read the black type. I do miss the green though, since green was in all the versions of P6 that I knew previously. But I'll adjust...)
Submitted by Prometheus 6 on May 3, 2005 - 12:11pm.

I like the conclusion he came to.

Can't we let this 5-year-old be our miner's canary -- a warning to us about the growing toxicity of our society?


The original Blogger incarnation of P6 was white, blue and gray, and the first Movable Type was so gray as to be slightly depressing. This color set started out as a return to my roots

It's actually possible for me to let you have green. I have a similar layout I designed for the N-Net...the columns are on the right...that I can activate for this site and you could choose between the two in your user profile. I think the Drupal developer's intent is to drop that functionality though, so I didn't.

I could do a poll... 


Submitted by Prometheus 6 on May 3, 2005 - 12:18pm.

Tell you what I miss though, is my first avatar.

 

Submitted by Ben G. on May 3, 2005 - 1:32pm.
I guess that dates when my readership of P6 began... I did like that avatar. I agree with that part you quote. It's true. There are a lot of different things the story ought to be ocasion to talk about—for example Florida's (and others') criminalization of children, in general.
Submitted by Prometheus 6 on May 3, 2005 - 2:07pm.

Yes. As Raspberry says, it can't be the faulty of a five year old child.

 

Submitted by Ben G. on May 3, 2005 - 2:35pm.
I'm glad he comes out and says it can't be her fault (many are not so quick to allow that), but I'm not sure how to read "The mother whose child seems so obviously headed for trouble found herself a lawyer." First time through I thought it was a judgement of the girl. On the other hand it's also true that this whole incident and the international televising of it may well have a decidedly negative effect on the girl's life. I have to wonder about the motivation of the mom's original lawyer (or at least his judgement) in releasing the video to the the press.
Submitted by dwshelf on May 3, 2005 - 3:45pm.

whose child seems so obviously headed for trouble

We all seem to agree that this child was trained, we might even say manipulated, mostly by her mother, to act that way. What Raspberry correctly pointed out that continued such training will almost certainly land this girl in prison.  The rest of us will be lucky if none of us are killed.

It's a form of child abuse which is more devasting to the kid than all but the worst of what we legally describe as child abuse.  Just think of what other kinds of parental behavior can cause the kid to end up so far off track that prison seems a certainty.

Submitted by Ben G. on May 3, 2005 - 3:50pm.
We all seem to agree that this child was trained, we might even say manipulated, mostly by her mother, to act that way.
we do? I sure don't. Are you going to make an argument from available evidence this time?
Submitted by Prometheus 6 on May 3, 2005 - 3:53pm.

We all seem to agree that this child was trained, we might even say manipulated, mostly by her mother, to act that way.

You might say that. 

I see a deep distrust of the powers-that-be before  which even the Libertarian world view pales into insignificance. And I see reason for it in our national history, particularly as it relates to the way Black folks have been and continue to be dealt with.

But that's me. 

Submitted by dwshelf on May 3, 2005 - 5:03pm.

we do? I sure don't.

I was confused.

Raspberry and I would so agree.  If you'd like the details of how to pull off this manipulation, I'll explain.  It focuses on making the parent feel good without regard for the effect on the kid. Like most child abuse.

If there's a better explanation, let's see it.

The contextual question is "what would cause a girl to act like that", as compared to the variety of other related, interesting questions regarding how other people (beyond her mother) should handle the result. 

Submitted by Ben G. on May 3, 2005 - 6:29pm.
There is no evidence of the cause of the girl's behavior that I know of. When one starts asking the contextual question that you speak of, one finds a lot of info about about how FL and Pinellas County in particular treats children badly, and African American children espeically badly. One does not find anything negative about the mother's parenting. In fact the mom's neighbors told reporters they had no problem with the mom and that her kids were always well behaved around them.
Submitted by EG on May 3, 2005 - 7:48pm.

...one finds a lot of info about about how FL and Pinellas County in particular treats children badly, and African American children espeically badly...

Can you provide the source of this information? How does the Pinellas County treat children relative to the other counties in the state or other counties in America?

Submitted by Ben G. on May 3, 2005 - 7:59pm.
EG, follow the links in my first comment, above. The link on the words "grossly overrepresented" will give you the florida statistics when this was researched back in the year 2000. I don't have comparitive figures for other states, but I do know that Florida goes further than many in criminalizing children:
Fifteen states have taken a different approach entirely, by adopting laws that prevent children under a certain age from being formally charged and prosecuted in juvenile court. In North Carolina, no one under 6 can be charged; in 11 states, the minimum age for prosecution is 10.

But Florida has no minimum age.
Submitted by dwshelf on May 4, 2005 - 4:03am.

There is no evidence of the cause of the girl's behavior that I know of. When one starts asking the contextual question that you speak of, one finds a lot of info about about how FL and Pinellas County in particular treats children badly, and African American children espeically badly.

Just to confirm the context here BG.  I'm a libertarian, in some ways conservative white guy. I (and P6's audience) like to understand new concepts, alternative perspectives on this kind of question.  Yours is valuable.

So far, I just don't understand it though.

Would you agree, the observed behavior is highly unusual for  a five year old?

If so, how do you suggest that the laws of Florida and/or Pinellas County played a part in shaping that behavior?

Submitted by EG on May 4, 2005 - 2:01pm.

Thanks for the clarification.  It sounds like the school was within their legal bounds to call the police on the child.

America has several options to this:

1. If we purchased Florida from Spain, check the return policy and calculate any restocking fees.

2. Sell Florida on eBay. (my personal recommendation to help with the national deficit)

3. Encourage a secession movement.

 

This state is more problems than its worth.