I read Milloy's piece and I couldn't figure out the point of it.  What he fails to address, in my humble opinion, is why so many employers who have a problem with one or two young black males feel justified in making generalizations about all young black males.

I find it hard to believe too that all illegal and legal Hispanic immigrants are reliable employees.  If there aren't a few duds in their box then they wouldn't be human.

1. They vote with us.  Last thing I want to see is some columnist manipulating black people into allying with welfare-queen republicans against better urban public education democrats.

2. African Americans would not really be better if there were no immigrants.  Immigrants are not really the only thing standing between African Americans and low paying jobs that we can use to pull ourselves up by our bootstraps.  Black people have definitely been the maids.  Definitely been the janitors and agricultural workers. 

Fact is that "be a janitor and maid for a generation and your children will compete on an even playing field with whites" doesn't work if you are black. It works if you are white because your accent-less white children really will be difficult to differentiate from another person's white children in race-based United States.  There are a lot of Mexicans I do not expect it to work for even after they lose the accents.  If I'm right, they will be voting with us until we fix this country.

I know some folks are not going to want to hear this, but yes, there is a serious problem with work ethic of many YBMs.  Let me get it out of the way, yes I'm Black.  I realize I will take some heat..but I must tell you the things I know to be true.

NC in the late 90s was a BOOMTOWN for residential /commercial construction and all ancillary industries (tree-cutting, material removal).  The state is still growing today, albeit further from the cities.  The industry is tough, but paid/pays WELL for manual labor.  In 1998-$11 (starting w/ no skills).  This kind of work means getting there at 5:00 am to avoid scorching heat in July and building fires out of discarded lumber in December.  It means coming home covered in mud, sawdust, concrete or paint.  It means not getting paid if it rains.  It means carrying back-breaking loads and walking on rafters.  It means injury or death if you're not careful.  It is also a place to start if you are uneducated.  You start at the bottom (sweeping, sawing) and gradually acquire skills (& thus more money).

I worked for a staffing service in North Carolina (fastest growing Latin pop. in the US) a few years ago.  The major portion of my day was spent staffing light industrial work (assembly lines, sector work in a factory, hospital clean up).  It was not high-paying work.  It was not fun work.  It was; however, steady work that segued right into permanent jobs after 120 days.  These permanent jobs include unionization and benefits.  Duke Univ & Duke Hospital was a major client.  It was also on the busline-a major benefit, if not essential to gainful employment for many people in Durham.

 The pool of applicants I selected from were overwhelmingly minority.  I'd say about a 55-45% +/- split between Blacks & Latins.  The people I collectively refer to as Latins were largely Mexican (Spanish & indigenous speakers) and Central American.  Few of them were American-born.

85% of those looking for light industrial were under 22 years old.  The applicants are marginally educated (Americans = GED, dropout; non-American Latins=lesser equivalent w/ limited or no English) with limited/no skills and no work history.

This comes down to someone (as they are, what would/should have been notwithstanding) taking what they can get b/c  they have nothing to offer to employers with higher skilled-higher paying jobs.

 Both groups of employers had barriers to certain jobs.  Some employers were stricter than others.  That is, some required criminal background checks (10 years) and/or valid SSNs.

For instance, Duke was strict.  Any crime (misd. included), other than a traffic violation excluded an applicant from consideration.  SSNs had to be valid as well.

The factories did not have such strong requirements.  No background checks, no valid SSN required.

The Duke applicants were 99% Black.  Most who were eventually hired were women.  So many males had records they were automatically excluded.  These applicants thus became candidates for the other light industrial jobs.

The light industrial jobs with no barriers were easiest to fill.  Just get the info and send them on out. Here is where Milloy's article comes into play...

When these candidates came into the office I interviewed them and established a friendly, but professional rapport.  I would often discuss the construction industry with them as I knew a bit about it(not supposed to but...I really DID want to help "us" out).  The responses I got were complaints about the weather, the hours, the dirt.  OK Fine.  On to light industrial then....

For all employees to join with our service, we required a LabCorp piss test.  Many, many YBMs failed this test - EVERY single day.  The Latins failed occasionally.

I had YBMs who would come in high off their ass.  YES I know for a fact they were HIGH.  They smelled like [cheap] weed and had bloodshot and sleepy eyes.  After several of these episodes, I had outright converations:

- "Have you smoked today?" 

- "yeah"

-'When's the last time you smoked?"

-"This morning."

If someone wants to wake n bake, that's their business.  But, YOU DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES COME TO A JOB INTERVIEW HIGH!  I think it bears repeating that this was not a rare occurrence.  They often came in as a group, after passing it to the left.  It got to the point where I would just sniff the air, pull the guy aside, and tell him to come back when he wouldn't piss cloudy.  Yep, some did come back after 4 weeks.

I remember, my boss having a conversation with an applicant who tried to get through the piss test by chugging a gallon of water.  His clear piss STILL failed.  His jocular attitude threw me.  I would have been mortified to not get a job for failing the piss test.  But not this guy.

It gets even worse, one applicant's results read, "specimen not human" this idiot actually tried to fool LabCorp by bringing in DOG PISS.  Needless to say, he was terminated from the system.

Now, once an applicant actually received an assignment, he received instructions on when and where to show up.  It was our duty to call after the assignment starts to confirm the employee/s showed up. This is when the racial/national disparites really start to emerge.  Not once did I ever have a Latin employee not show up on time or not show up at all.  With our Black employees we always had to hope (2 staffers and 2 levels of management - all Black FYI).  I gave them the same, damn instructions I gave the Black employees - only in Spanish!!!!

No, they are not all perfect.  No, we aren't all triflin'. 

We have different experiences and interests that are diverging more each day.  But, yes, within a certain segment of the population is there is a very weak work ethic.

There is definitely the tendency to romantically extol the virtures of hardworking immigrants [cue violins] in America.  Knowing dozens of undocumented workers on a personal as well as professional level, I will say that these people don't f@#* around.  You don't come 3000 miles through at least one border, through the desert and/or in a Uhaul to dick around.  Take some time to talk to thse people who are on the bus with dirty clothes.  Find out what they are about and why they do what they do (take shit jobs and suffer abuse).  "We" often tend to think that poverty is poverty.  Well...it's not.  I take nothing from the suffering and marginalization in urban and rural America, but we must realize American poor is not Mexican (especially rural) poor, is not Ethiopian poor, is not Cambodian poor, is not China poor (most of it is rural).  There are no food stamps, WIC checks, unemployment in those places.  The social network of non-profits and churches is weaker than what exists here.  These people that ride 10 in a car, live 20 in a house are supporting their families (and nations) back home.  Do or die takes on a whole, new meaning.

the comments that have been posted above reflect the tension that has always been b/t our communities.  As non-whites we have the struggle against white supremacy.  On the other hand, our origins make us unique as a community.  The demographics are changing.  Not just w/ respect to ethnicity/color but origin.  The reasoning, tactics, moral suasion we used to make headway into one America, will not work tomorrow.  Our political influence does not hold the same power it once did.  If we are to thrive (not just survive), we need to work on us & not worry about the others. 

I realize that whenever the inevitable Black vs. Latin comparison arguments pop up there will be kneejerk reactions (to wit, "Keep this shit up, and I'll work up an argument for biometric ID cards")

OneBlackMan, I see where you're going & agree ("Immigrants are not really the only thing standing between African Americans and low paying jobs that we can use to pull ourselves up by our bootstraps.  Black people have definitely been the maids.  Definitely been the janitors and agricultural workers.  Fact is that "be a janitor and maid for a generation and your children will compete on an even playing field with whites" doesn't work if you are black.")  However the fact remains, a marginal education and cavalier attitude towards work leads to a permanent position as a janitor or maid (unless you get fired for absenteeism).

The way I see it, my ancestors already did those jobs (the earliest weren't paid, their kids were paid pennies - but they did them and did them well).  That's why their children and my parents did not have to mop up blood and dirt.  In spite of those who actively worked to block their way, they did what they had to do to get an education. 

BTW I marched on Monday.

I realize that whenever the inevitable Black vs. Latin comparison arguments pop up there will be kneejerk reactions (to wit, "Keep this shit up, and I'll work up an argument for biometric ID cards")

That was not a kneejerk reaction. It's the way I always react to people that treat my interests as fungible for their purposes.

The problem isn't Black folks claiming Latinos are stealing their jobs because Black folks never had such a sense of entitlement. The problem is white folks claiming Latinos are taking their jobs. And this clown's answer is "It's Black people who don't want the jobs we're taking...y'all are safe."

I am not interested in competing for "most offended minority" status. I am saying that writing an article in the Washington Post that says Black folks not only don't want the jobs but can't do them if they got them will not incline me to argue for your point.

I'm a Black partisan. Real open minded, but if your pundits find the need to define the Latino constituencies over against us, I may well help them...my way.

Because this IS the way immigrants have traditionally stepped on Black folks' neck. And when I get to the Bureau of Labor Statistics and look at the raw numbers, the percentages of the available for work pool actually working for Black folks:

Series Id:           LNU01300006 Not Seasonally Adjusted Series title:        (Unadj) Labor Force Participation Rate - Black or African American Labor force status:  Civilian labor force participation rate Type of data:        Percent Age:                 16 years and over Race:                Black or African American
Year	Jan	Feb	Mar	Apr	May	Jun	Jul	Aug	Sep	Oct	Nov	Dec	Annual
1996	63.0	62.4	63.4	63.4	64.0	64.6	66.0	65.4	63.9	64.8	64.4	64.1	64.1
1997	63.5	63.5	64.1	63.8	64.2	65.1	66.1	66.4	65.2	64.8	64.7	64.9	64.7
1998	64.2	64.5	65.4	64.9	64.6	66.5	67.3	66.1	65.4	66.2	66.1	65.7	65.6
1999	65.3	64.8	65.2	65.2	65.5	66.3	67.3	66.2	66.1	66.1	66.2	65.8	65.8
2000	65.8	66.3	65.9	65.6	65.7	66.3	66.5	65.7	64.8	65.5	66.1	65.8	65.8
2001	65.2	64.8	65.5	65.0	65.1	66.1	66.3	65.5	65.1	65.0	64.9	65.3	65.3
2002	64.4	64.4	64.6	64.8	65.0	65.3	65.0	64.7	64.9	64.8	64.4	64.9	64.8
2003	63.8	63.8	63.7	64.2	64.6	65.6	65.3	64.6	64.4	64.2	64.2	63.4	64.3
2004	63.5	62.8	63.7	63.1	63.0	64.1	65.2	64.3	63.9	64.5	64.1	63.8	63.8
2005	62.9	62.8	63.2	63.5	64.2	65.6	65.8	64.9	64.3	64.7	64.4	63.6	64.2
2006	62.6	63.6

And white folks:

Series Id:           LNU01300003 Not Seasonally Adjusted Series title:        (Unadj) Labor Force Participation Rate - White Labor force status:  Civilian labor force participation rate Type of data:        Percent Age:                 16 years and over Race:                White
Year	Jan	Feb	Mar	Apr	May	Jun	Jul	Aug	Sep	Oct	Nov	Dec	Annual
1996	66.3	66.7	66.9	66.7	67.1	67.8	68.2	67.5	67.2	67.4	67.4	67.2	67.2
1997	66.9	67.0	67.3	67.1	67.4	68.2	68.4	67.8	67.3	67.5	67.5	67.3	67.5
1998	66.9	67.0	67.1	66.8	67.3	67.9	68.0	67.6	67.3	67.3	67.3	67.2	67.3
1999	67.0	67.1	67.1	66.9	67.2	68.0	68.1	67.6	67.0	67.2	67.2	67.3	67.3
2000	67.0	67.2	67.3	67.3	67.1	67.9	67.8	67.4	67.0	67.0	67.0	67.1	67.3
2001	67.0	67.1	67.3	66.9	66.8	67.5	67.6	66.9	66.8	67.0	66.9	66.8	67.0
2002	66.5	66.9	66.8	66.7	66.8	67.4	67.5	67.1	66.7	66.8	66.5	66.3	66.8
2003	66.3	66.5	66.5	66.5	66.4	67.2	67.0	66.6	66.1	66.3	66.4	66.1	66.5
2004	66.0	66.1	66.1	66.0	66.2	66.9	67.0	66.5	66.0	66.2	66.3	66.1	66.3
2005	65.8	66.0	65.9	66.1	66.3	66.7	66.9	66.7	66.3	66.4	66.4	66.2	66.3
2006	66.0	66.0

I am not feeling any accusations of shiftlessness.

Your examples are children, the same crew that, if white, would be living in their parents' basement manfully failing to launch. And the white folks who are voting Latinos out of the country are the ones you have to deal with.

A white columnist cannot turn me against Latinos. A white columnist can turn me further against whites. (Not really).

A black columnist like Sowell definitely cannot turn me against Blacks. My philosophy is they have to eat, so they write what their white media organization tells them to write.

A latino columnist, or even ten Latino columnists could not turn me against Latinos. I will be with Latinos until they vote as or more Republican than Whites.

I'll say improving the black work ethic would be a good thing. I doubt you have a good way to do it. Complaining about the black work ethic without proposing a plausible way to improve it is unproductive.

P6:

Thanks for showing the stats.

I was getting ready to make my argument that work ethic, on a macro level, is influenced by external conditions.  That is to say that if there are two communities and one community is rewarded even a little less for the same effort, then the community that is rewarded less will see a general work ethic level a little lower than the other.

That ties into the fact that nobody takes into account that during the immigrant boom at the beginning of the 20th century, none of these immigrants worked harder than Blacks from the South.  The if the work ethic changed it was not magic.  It changed because the rewards for work for blacks and whites were different over the 20th century.

But looking at the statistics, the work ethic isn't even significantly different.  We have to have these discussions in the real world, instead of our imaginations or the anecdotes we can produce that somehow mysteriously match the rationalization requirements of those who control most of the media that supplies us with information.

I know some folks are not going to want to hear this, but yes, there is a serious problem with work ethic of many YBMs.


The issue is not that folks don't want to hear this and other similar statements about the behavior of some young black men. We already know that some young black men have a poor work ethic. So what? Lots of young men of all different  races and ethnic groups have a poor work ethic.  What concerns us is why does the behvior of a relatively few young black men or women become described as the behavior of most or all young black men and women?

But looking at the statistics, the work ethic isn't even significantly different.

...which realization will have significant impact on one's interpretation of manifold other issues.

...which realization will have significant impact on one's interpretation of manifold other issues.

.... which realization may lead one to ask "who the **** gave me the idea that that the work ethic is different, why the **** did I believe them, and what the **** else are they lying about?"

We get hammered with this constantly.

Everyone from the National Urban League to most progressive bloggers to Ward Connerly agree on one thing: to become "equal" Black people must cut all the triflingness, educate ourselves, blah, blah...which implies our biggest problem is being trifling and uneducated.

You never have to actually spell it out. You can define it by negative space.

Some believe there is a problem specifically with the work ethic of some (I'm talking about YBM).

Some believe that there is a general problem of work ethic.  Fine

Some believe that many are getting lumped in with a few.  I believe that to [always] be the case.

As mentioned, I have experienced a lack of work ethic that was above and beyond what could be considered normal.  Prometheus, I believe you stated that others of that age would possibly live off the parents.  Sure.  Yes, I believe that some do have the privilege of slacking off.  However, many of don't  have the privilege to slack off.  Is that a privilege we want?  Is it one we/they really need?  The consequences are too severe.

"Complaining about the black work ethic without proposing a plausible way to improve it is unproductive."  To be clear, I'm concerned about the work ethic of YBM.  Older people don't seem to have a problem of work ethic (higher unemployment/underemployment yes).  How can a work ethic be improved?  Do you think it can be improved in a collective way?  Do you think it is instilled?  Do you think that one has some internal input?

 

 

Do you think it can be improved in a collective way?

You can't do it by using it to support issues having nothing to do with the problem.

You also have to recognize reality, and deal accordingly. The stats show there is no significant difference in "the work ethic." The fairly consistent gap can be explained as the result of racism...it's so small, white folks would likely accept that, which means most Black folks will.

But that means you're not calling for equality. You're demanding MORE of Black folks...which you may well get, IF you're not claiming they are somehow deficient for being the same as everyone else.

Also, keep in mind that addressing the "work ethic" of young Black men does NOT address Milloy's uses of young Black men as a prop.

Dude,

The thing about those work ethic questions is that if you don't already have an answer to propose then what was your point?

"Young Black Men (and YBM as an abbreviation grates on me) are lazy so we should join/donate to/build this organization or as a group or as voters take this specific step that I argue will make them less lazy."

Is one thing.

"Young black men are lazy."

Is another thing.

If you say the first, then there can at least be a discussion about if your organization or the steps you are proposing are really the best way to address what you consider the problem to be.  In that discussion we can examine the size of the problem and how it can be measured and worked on in real life.

If you say the second, I really question if it's worth my time to even engage you.

White people call black people who say the second thing bold, innovative thinkers, when its not really bold or innovative.  It is literally repeating white people's rationalizations of racial economic relations.  The rationalizatoins have remained the same since the slavery era.

I'm confused. You do know that Milloy is black, not Latino, right?

No, I wasn't aware.

Changes nothing.

Milloy has actually written some reallly good/crucial pieces, in the past, As a brutha, I duuno what has gottten into him. I'm of the opninion that his piece was, largely, propagandistic. Actually, I think I understand what he's trying to do. What's shocking to me, on the other hand, is that folks, who are supposedl " in the"know" did not know he was black!

Changes nothing?

Changes everything!

If he's Lation, then his article is about "Why we get jobs and you don't." If he's black, the column is about "Why they get jobs and we don't."

I' ve known for years that Milloy was black.

What's shocking to me, on the other hand, is that folks, who are supposedl " in the"know" did not know he was black!

Who would those folks be, GDAWG? Why would it be shocking?

Don't be shy.

Changes nothing?

Changes everything!

Do you think that I have even once changed a position I reached because of who opposed it?

If he's black, the column is about "Why they get jobs and we don't."

Read that thing again, without knowing the identity of the author. See if you perceive a "we" in there.

when our abilities are immediately discounted to the degree that we can be made to fit people's preconceptions as a tactic, we feel the tactitician and the one who executes the tactic is racist. When the tactic succeeds, we feel those who hold the preconceptions that were played on are racist.

You see here my standard, and it is an objective one. This being the case, since I ain't gone ad hominem I got nothing to retract.

i have to say that three of most hyper-competitive businesses that require skillz, industry, ballz and guile: professional athletics, street-level narco-trafficking, and music. Seems that plenty of cats have demonstrated a work ethic in those realms where the payouts are high - and the risks typically outweigh the rewards...moralizing aside, does anyone seriously think that Jeff Skilling worked harder than Allen Iverson to earn his loot?

"Read that thing again, without knowing the identity of the author. See if you perceive a 'we' in there."

I was looking at your headline. There's definitely a "you" in there.

Yup. Definitely. In response to the lack of a "we."

What you have here is my immediate reaction. And do I not rip on Shelby Steele's white people? Yes I do...

There are issues with Black folk and immigration policy. Milloy put forth the exact position that was used by past waves of immigrants to push Black people down.

That cannot stand.