Prometheus utters the battle cry: Fuck George Will! Too late. Check out Will's marital record....

Is there a link to Will's editorial there p6?

Update. Found it.

I'd include it here (from your previous posting), but how does one do that? Is there an easier way than >A href="...

No, there's not. I had that wysiwyg thing working for a while but it had several annoying traits. I think I was supposed to patch a couple of files to get it working.

Anyway, I'll do better at some point. Meanwhile I added the link to the post.

Excerpted from Will's comments:

Ok, now I think I've read what there is to read here, P6. Sorry for the discombobulated response.

In the other blog, you agreed with the second comment above. But we took a different perspective on the two of them.

We have a confusing basis here. Are we talking about Will? Are we talking about Will's representation of DeParle? Or are we talking about Ms. Jobe?

Of that list, I suggest that Ms. Jobe is the more interesting topic. I seems that we know a bit about her, some of which may be incorrect. The basic facts seem undisputed. She moved to Wisconsin, attracted by a better life on welfare. She was required to get a job. She got a job, albeit one which doesn't substantially enrich her as compared to living on welfare.

And the interesting questions
(feeling list empowered here..)

We are talking Will's misrepresentation of Mr. DeParle and Ms. Jobe.

Did you listen to the interviews on NPR? In particular the one with Ms. Jobe.

"What can be done to motivate far more men to pursue well-paying jobs and remain an integral part of their children's lives?"

asks one of the book reviewers on Amazon.com.

While Lester Spence suggests that we're watching the third-worlding of the US unfold all around us, including the active and intentional substitution of propaganda for science.

My take on this is slightly different. Accepting the fact that Murray and Will are racist, propagandist stooges with unfortunately large access furnished them by folks interested in seeing them do their nasty myth-making best, the underlying problem(s) highlighted by the continuing reality of poverty don't appear to have any discernable solution.

Commerce is the absolute and unquestioned social imperative in America. What can be done to reorient reality-based community around a factor or factors other than the purely commercial? More particularly, without command of a mass propaganda vehicle - because that's not going to be a tool at our disposal and we will always have propagandist sadducees to contend with, how could such an objective be accomplished?

What can be done to reorient reality-based community around a factor or factors other than the purely commercial?

If you or anyone else has a plausible idea, that idea would be widely explored. A lot of well meaning people are willing to put lots of time and money into breaking other people out of the poverty cycle.

Why would we would reject purely commercial forces as the way out of poverty? It's what has brought most of us, as individuals as well as ethnic groups, out of the poverty which is not far back in our history.

As a not purely commercial notion, I think this is a place where voluntary discrimination makes good sense. Some organizations may well focus on one race in an effort to instill a sense of community support and shared success. By concept, "Blacks helping Blacks" sure seems to have a better chance of success than "federal government giving out money".

An even more extreme of this exists in various Chinese and Vietnamese contexts. Large extended families, sometimes aligned with other families, create a pool of money and business talent. They start new busineses. They hire each other's kids, they promote from within. And they succeed, overall, with near certainty.

dw:

Why would we would reject purely commercial forces as the way out of poverty? It's what has brought most of us, as individuals as well as ethnic groups, out of the poverty which is not far back in our history.

It is, indeed, not far back in our past, so I'm surprised you don't see the input the whole government subsidization of housing, education and negro removal urban renewal had in the process.

Do you realize that denying the impact of collective effects limits you as much as denying the impact of will and intention?

C:

What can be done to reorient reality-based community around a factor or factors other than the purely commercial? More particularly, without command of a mass propaganda vehicle - because that's not going to be a tool at our disposal and we will always have propagandist sadducees to contend with, how could such an objective be accomplished?

Some of ds's personal initiative will have to come into play. And the Internet can be a "nervous system" of sorts. I see my own online function as very like a neural cluster...taking in data, emphasizing or deemphasizing what I find important or pointless and handing it off to the next person to weigh by their own standards.

Of course, this has been tried before, but for the most part those who did devalued the things people actually believe in and therefore gained no social traction at all.

If you or anyone else has a plausible idea, that idea would be widely explored.

I'm not so sure that's true. Many a fine collective praxis has fallen prey to western ideological victimization. Christianity is a veritable case study in this regard. Many Christians regard Christian praxis as one of the very best kept secrets in America.

An even more extreme of this exists in various Chinese and Vietnamese contexts. Large extended families, sometimes aligned with other families, create a pool of money and business talent. They start new busineses. They hire each other's kids, they promote from within. And they succeed, overall, with near certainty.

Interestingly during my lifetime, when this very same asian model of economics through extended family was practiced at home in Southeast Asia, it came to blows with American interests and only by a protracted and extremely costly insurgency was it able to fend off American predation. Again, one of the very best kept secrets in America.

See, I can't honestly claim to have a mastery of urban American history from the period 1954-1974 - I was only a little kid, and I'm not sure those histories have been sufficiently well digested and documented yet for me to arrive at definitive conclusions. But what I have witnessed for certain is a low intensity war on African American males here in the U.S. prosecuted under the rubric of the so-called War on Drugs. I know for certain that this low intensity conflict and correlative flourishing of the American Prison Industrial Complex have had a disproportionate and draconian impact on the lives of poor black Americans without impeding the flow of drugs into America by a single jot or tittle.

The only net result flowing from the so-called War on Drugs in America is full employment for quite a few low skilled workers across the *criminal-justice* spectrum - the overwhelming majority of whom are not black. Since this pogrom started in earnest under the Nixon *law and order* doctrine crushing blows have been dealt to fundamental systems of internal governance, guardianship and support in the black American community. There have also been a number of ugly foreign policy initiatives in Central and South American coinciding with all these goings on, as well. Coincidence? Who knows....,

But what I have witnessed for certain is a low intensity war on African American males here in the U.S. prosecuted under the rubric of the so-called War on Drugs.

To paraphrase the line we can all recall regarding malice vs incompetence, never ascribe to a conspiracy that which can be explained by dogmatic pursuit of a failing policy. If it's not working, we should redouble our efforts in the same direction. If that doesn't work either, then we should redouble yet again.

The war on drugs is a miserable failure, and indeed has had a disproportionate and devastating effect on young black males, and their families. The evidence for government stupidity is obvious. The evidence for conspiracy is non-existent.

The war on drugs could theoretically be won. Take the Saudi model. Sell, or possess for sale, you get publicly beheaded. Further, none of this illegal search problem. Downright anti-American, but effective.

The weakness in the American war on drugs is that drug laws cannot be effectively enforced in the short term, given the Bill of Rights. That means that the existence of such laws in the face of a large demand sets up a trap. Selling drugs yields money, lots of money, for a while. It doesn't take a genious to look down the road and see either death or prison, but young people are not known for their foresight. And thus, they fall into the trap. There's no doubt that the trap is the creation of the government, unintended as it might be. Nor is there any doubt that the trap is extremely effective in capturing the children of dysfunctional homes, kids for which the long term avoidance of prison or death seems only abstractly valuable, while the immediate cash is compelling.

The weakness in the American war on drugs is that drug laws cannot be effectively enforced in the short term, given the Bill of Rights. That means that the existence of such laws in the face of a large demand sets up a trap. Selling drugs yields money, lots of money, for a while. It doesn't take a genious to look down the road and see either death or prison, but young people are not known for their foresight. And thus, they fall into the trap. There's no doubt that the trap is the creation of the government, unintended as it might be. Nor is there any doubt that the trap is extremely effective in capturing the children of dysfunctional homes, kids for which the long term avoidance of prison or death seems only abstractly valuable, while the immediate cash is compelling.

Collective Identity is a terribly difficult concept for most folks to wrap their heads around. Somehow though, the concept of a Collective Unconscious has never seemed to raise too terribly many eyebrows. Matter of fact, if you survey the expanse of populist wisdom and pithy sayings, it's a veritable cornucopia of de facto understanding of the particular ebbs and flows of the Collective Unconscious. Let's take the current administration as a case in point. Now, is George Bush the poster child for a vast right wing intellectual conspiracy, or, is he the embodiment of a set of complementary tidal flows in the american white-male psyche? I'm just askin....,

I don't need the benefit of historical 20-20 hindsight to clearly see the disproportionate devastation and non-existent results of the War on Drugs. No more than I'll need 20-20 hindsight to anticipate the effects of our current catastrophic and mythopoetic War on Terror. Until and unless I see something more compelling than;

The evidence for conspiracy is non-existent.

knowing what I know first-hand about the prevalence of Saudi drug and alcohol addiction at elevated socio-economic levels, and knowing what I know first hand about the Prison Industrial Complex (PIC) beneficiaries of the War on Drugs, I'll just go ahead and continue to chalk that ruinously failed policy up to a multi-decade set of complementary liminal racist tidal flows.

Of course, we digress here rather massively, considering that the topic around which present discussion is threaded is the role of propagandists, science, and epistemic clarity in understanding what forces and factors militate toward continuing poverty and dysfunction in America.

Do you realize that denying the impact of collective effects limits you as much as denying the impact of will and intention?

I'm working on it, p6.

impact of collective effects

Here's where I sort of get mentally blocked.

In engineering contexts, I'm the classic cynic. Things are going to go wrong, things already are off track, stop pretending otherwise.

In human contexts, I see it entirely differently. Most people, me included, are limited by our own belief regarding such limitations. This barrier is stronger than all outside forces combined for most people. Why do we find people of what appears modest means and talent occasionally achieving huge success? Because somehow they managed to become confident that they could do so.

Lack of confidence has the opposite effect. It holds one down, and its hold is powerful.

So when interacting with people who haven't as yet achieved much, my intent is to say and do things which affect that person positively. To not comment regarding things, even when truthful, which tend to cement a lack of confidence.

Now there is in fact a place for saying "you're a member of a group who has been treated way badly, a group which faces barriers most other groups do not face". That time is when the person has demonstrated success. I can say that to you, p6.

But I cannot bring myself to think that of a person who is struggling with lack of confidence. I'd much rather point to successes. To offer personal friendship. To try to arrange, if necessary, successful experiences on a small scale so that the inner cycle of failure can be broken. To work on tne natural human reaction to pleasant experiences with another human, a reaction which seeks more such pleasure, and eventualy comes to a point where the person is willing to modify their behavior to increase such pleasure. And to avoid, nearly at all costs, bad personal experiences.

In engineering contexts, I'm the classic cynic. Things are going to go wrong, things already are off track, stop pretending otherwise.

You ever create a robust solution without taking boundary conditions into account?

Why do we find people of what appears modest means and talent occasionally achieving huge success? Because somehow they managed to become confident that they could do so.

And you think they just decided that? You think that's the sole difference?

So when interacting with people who haven't as yet achieved much, my intent is to say and do things which affect that person positively.

Yet that doesn't happen and I'll suggest why--what you consider something that will defeat confidence is, for most of us, an assumption and simple fact of life. And when you avoid those things in discussion when they are so obvious it looks like evasion, denial and other things likely to piss a brother off.

Here is a fact: I did not come to my understanding of things by pretending I am not limited by the real state of affairs. And here's a speculation: you will not find a single very successful Black person who will attribute his or her success to pretending there is no racism unless they are in the employ of Republicans...and that's not a flip insult, nor am I speaking of Black Republicans in general because there are those who (for whatever reason) believe the hype.

But I cannot bring myself to think that of a person who is struggling with lack of confidence. I'd much rather point to successes.

I understand your preference. But if you don't acknowledge the obstacles why would anyone believe you even see them? And if you don't see them, why would anyone assume your advice will help?

There's a series on Racism I maintain, and there's a post that might help you understand what I'm saying here.

And you think they just decided that? You think that's the sole difference?

No, as I wrote it, it's overly simplistic. I don't think we're going to disagree strongly on this point, however. Lack of confidence is a massive barrier. Confidence cannot be confused with bravado, it must be based on education or experience. However, lack of confidence is the crucial factor in the vicious cycle. No confidence, no motivation to achieve education or experience. That cycle needs to be broken bit by bit, small success by small success.

And here's a speculation: you will not find a single very successful Black person who will attribute his or her success to pretending there is no racism unless they are in the employ of Republicans

I agree with you, p6. I've never heard a single black person tell me there is no racism.

I'm really trying to avoid

"Your ancestors were slaves, and modern society is still dumping on you. Most people like you end up in the joint, because of racist government programs. Check out the evidence."

-vs-

"Times remain tough for black Americans, but it's quite possible to succeed, and not just in sports. I'd like us to succeed on a personal level, because I care to see you successful. Tell me about something you're pleased about."

But if you don't acknowledge the obstacles why would anyone believe you even see them?

It's not a case of failing to acknowledge them. Rather, it's a denial that they define a life. There are other obstacles in life too. Being young is clearly an obstacle, for example. Obstacles can require analysis, planning, and on rare occasions, even strategy, but when we see them as definitive, we're back in that no-confidence vicious cycle.

There's a series on Racism I maintain, and there's a post that might help you understand what I'm saying here.

I'd read that before, p6. Surprised?

You've not read me claiming that racism doesn't exist, nor that it's not important.

I'd read that before, p6. Surprised?

Yes, because you make the same error ProperWinston did. You want to get beyond racism. We have to get through it.

But if you don't acknowledge the obstacles why would anyone believe you even see them?

It's not a case of failing to acknowledge them

Sure it is.

In engineering contexts, I'm the classic cynic. Things are going to go wrong, things already are off track, stop pretending otherwise.

In human contexts, I see it entirely differently.

No, as I wrote it, it's overly simplistic. I don't think we're going to disagree strongly on this point, however. Lack of confidence is a massive barrier. Confidence cannot be confused with bravado, it must be based on education or experience. However, lack of confidence is the crucial factor in the vicious cycle. No confidence, no motivation to achieve education or experience. That cycle needs to be broken bit by bit, small success by small success.

The sheer magnitude of the problem of breaking the cycle on an individual basis is daunting, on a collective basis, overwhelming. As much because the "cycle" permeates so much of the machinery of the culture, it's virtually omnipresent. Bravura or oppositional behaviour is the individual reflex response to damp the visceral pain of social rejection. Collectivized bravura or oppositional culture is a big barrier to assimilation in the mainstream. Interestingly, oppositional culture as fashion statement dominates popular culture. Racism has given rise to a viscious circle with no end in sight.

Meanwhile, the Bush propaganda machine massaged the collective psyche with images that would have had us believe there are *wolves* circling all around us as we go round and round one another in the uniquely American cycle of mutual and reciprocal psychological cowardice...,

Images Show a Snub Really Is Like Kick in the Gut
Thu Oct 9, 4:40 PM ET Add Science - Reuters to My Yahoo!

By Maggie Fox, Health and Science Correspondent

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The feeling is familiar to anyone who has been passed over in picking teams or snubbed at a party -- a sickening, almost painful feeling in the stomach.

Well, it turns out that "kicked in the gut" feeling is real, U.S. scientists said on Thursday.

Brain imaging studies show that a social snub affects the brain precisely the way visceral pain does.

"When someone hurts your feelings, it really hurts you," said Matt Lieberman, a social psychologist at the University of California, Los Angeles, who worked on the study.

"I wouldn't want to be quoted as saying that physical pain and social pain are the same thing, but it seems that some of the same things are going on," he said in a telephone interview.

"In the English language we use physical metaphors to describe social pain like 'a broken heart' and 'hurt feelings,"' added Naomi Eisenberger, a graduate student who did much of the work. "Now we see that there is good reason for this."

Working with Kipling Williams, a psychology professor at Macquarie University in Sydney, Australia, Lieberman and Eisenberger set up a brain imaging test of 13 volunteers to find out how social distress affects the brain.

They used functional magnetic imaging -- a type of scan that allows the brain's activity to be viewed "live." The 13 volunteers were given a task that they did not know related to an experiment in social snubbing.

Writing in the journal Science, Lieberman and Eisenberger said the brains of the volunteers lit up when they were rejected in virtually the same way as a person experiencing physical pain.

"It would be odd if social pain looked like the exact same thing as someone-breaking-your-arm pain," Lieberman said. "What it does look like is visceral pain."

In other words -- like being punched in the stomach.

The area affected is the anterior cingulate cortex, a part of the brain known to be involved in the emotional response to pain.

In the experiment, the volunteers were asked to play a computer game. They believed they were playing two other people, but in fact played a set computer program.

"It looked like a ball being thrown around between the three people," Lieberman said.

Eventually, the game excludes the player. "For the next 45 throws they don't get thrown the ball," Lieberman said.

"It is just heartbreaking to watch. They keep indicating that they are ready to be thrown to. This really affects the person afterwards. They report feeling social distress."

The functional magnetic imaging verifies the physical basis of this feeling.

Social interaction is important to survival, so it would make sense that people would evolve to have a strong emotional response to being included socially, Lieberman said.

"For any mammal, all the needs that people typically think of as necessary for survival -- food, shelter, avoiding physical harm -- your caregiver gives you access to those needs," Lieberman said.

But there also seems to be a defense mechanism to prevent the pain of rejection from becoming overwhelming.

"We also saw this area in the prefrontal cortex. The more it is active in response to pain, the less subjective pain you feel," Lieberman said. "This part of the brain inhibits the more basic response."

In the volunteers, those who had the most activity here reported the least distress in response to the snub.

It seemed to be involved in consciously thinking about the pain, Lieberman said, but said the area needed more study.

"We also saw this area in the prefrontal cortex. The more it is active in response to pain, the less subjective pain you feel," Lieberman said. "This part of the brain inhibits the more basic response."

In the volunteers, those who had the most activity here reported the least distress in response to the snub.

It seemed to be involved in consciously thinking about the pain, Lieberman said, but said the area needed more study.

Bullseye.

ot dealing with it directly DAMAGES one.

Mecklenburg County Commissioner Bill James sincerely believes that the neurobiological sickness which American racism has wrought is black parental immorality. I.M.M.O.R.A.L.I.T.Y.?????

He's not alone, either. This culture literally and pervasively denigrates anyone who would dare dissentangle the gordian knot of its neuropathology. The racist meme protects itself from careful scrutiny. Wouldn't want to be too PC, or too sensitive, too liberal, or a host of other *unmanly* gnosticisms attendant to knowing how feelings work individually and collectively.

The article linked below is a British intragroup example. Extrapolated to the demographic and propagandistic powderkeg of America and it takes on still more daunting proportions. Applied to the developmental context of public schools, where visceral response/reflex buffering is being established quite early, applied to the context of welfare or other safety nets of last resort, and on, and on..., we see the infinitesimal psychological moment played out over and over again, and THIS is precisely the culturally normalized reflex that must be overcome in order for people to simply function normally. Forget about successful, forget about any other measure of progress in a societal context other than the root objective of achieving a baseline of healthy neurobiological functioning without the omnipresent flinch.

Socialized ego protection and threat/contempt reflexes as a way of life

Let's first endeavor to understand the core sickness eating away at any possibility of a healthy American interpersonal communion.

The sheer magnitude of the problem of breaking the cycle on an individual basis is daunting, on a collective basis, overwhelming.

It's not overwhelming in the sense of hopeless. One adult can matter in a lot of young lives. There are a lot of adults who care.

Racism has given rise to a viscious circle with no end in sight.

We, you, I, people like us, cannot control racism. We can't make it go away. What we can do is work on breaking that vicious circle for individual people. When they succeed, they'll pass it on. There's a successful cycle as well.

dealing with it directly DAMAGES one.

I can recall the pain vividly from my anti-social youth. More seriously anti-social than you might have guessed.

I can also recall some adults, a total of maybe six over time, who stepped into a total mess with something beyond complaints or lectures. They didn't seem to matter at the time; I recognized they were trying to help, and I sort of appreciated that, I just didn't see how what they were doing was going to matter. I wanted the pain of rejection to go away, and they didn't seem to make much progress. Only years later could I look back and see that they really did do something.

What we can do is work on breaking that vicious circle for individual people. When they succeed, they'll pass it on. There's a successful cycle as well.

This is the indispensable individual innoculation against plague conditions, isn't it?

We, you, I, people like us, cannot control racism. We can't make it go away.

I'm not sure this is true. While I've spoken about racism in the sternest possible terms as a viscious circle, a neurobiological sickness, and the result of collective unconscious imperatives (conspiracy)...., the fact that I can tell you quite specifically and mechanistically what comprises the racist pathogen in its particulars, suggests to me that a systematic or epidemiological approach to the erradication of this collective mental illness also exists. Knowing what you now know, wouldn't we be remiss in our therapeutic responsibilities to attempt anything less than an outright eradication of the plague itself?

We, you, I, people like us, cannot control racism. We can't make it go away.

Not while we waste time trying NOT to deal with it, anyway.

dw, seriously, I'm not trying to solve white folks' guilt or anger issues. That's YOUR job. They'll listen to you where they will not listen to me.

You need to remember there are two side to this mess. You are obviously not able to reach Black folks because you will not see the collective obstacles that eat much of our personal efforts. If you're sincere and want to address racism, you must talk white folks and be as real about their part in our problems as I am about Black AND white folks. You keep talking about what Black people need to do and I just am not feeling you until I see you put at least equal time into white folks' input into the problem.

Until you do that, [collective] you're an obstacle. Maybe not intentionally. But you are.

the fact that I can tell you quite specifically and mechanistically what comprises the racist pathogen in its particulars,

Tell us more, cnulan. This sounds useful.

Since A.D. 1619, each interpersonal instance of white denial of non-white humanity has caused the non-white party an instantaneous reflexive flinch, an unnatural prefrontal buffering of visceral pain. You could call the net effect of this process a centuries old integral of a series of infinitesimal buffering flinches - or you could simply call it oppositional culture. (personally, I believe there's greater explanatory power in looking at it at the discrete instances level)

An explanatory history of white denial of non-white humanity - pursuant to commercial ends - has been nicely resourced here - courtesy P6.

Since A.D. 1619, each interpersonal instance of white denial of non-white humanity has caused the non-white party an instantaneous reflexive flinch, an unnatural prefrontal buffering of visceral pain.

Ok. I have no problem working on breaking that cycle. As definitions of racism go, this one surely is beyond controversy.

And at some risk here...my own experience, which I think generalizes a bit. While I wasn't raised in any sense a superioricist, somehow my parents neglected to get it sunk in to me that the various races were human in exactly the same way. I had to learn that for myself, somewhere in my 20s. Relevant, I'd missed learning it earlier despite exclusively pleasant interactions with Blacks.

I do believe this was one of those things learned by epiphany, although I don't recall the exact moment. I do recall thinking, with a bit of awe, that I'd just learned something profound, something important which had been missing from my analysis of life.

I don't think my kids had that experience, because when the occasion arose, I took the opportunity to explain very concisely. It seemed important that they not have to learn that for themselves, it's not hard to confirm.

However, my experience did leave me understanding that there was an era when few whites believed that. And I started understanding the importance of Lena Horne. Then Sidney Poitier, the two who affected me the most. And many other blacks whose performances almost certainly created the same reaction in millions of white Americans in the 1930-1960 era. Ridicule them if you like for performing for white audiences, but if understanding humanity is your intent, these poeple were powerful beyond comprehension.

Lately, we have Reggie White. Clarence Thomas might be far closer to me ideologically, but Reggie White was far more, well, you know, like me. More correctly, like I'd like to be by the time I die.

Let's not leave out tens of millions of black people who will never be movie stars nor professional athletes, but do have time for a pleasant human experience. Because the real solution is simply enjoying each other as we share a time alive.

dw, seriously, I'm not trying to solve white folks' guilt or anger issues. That's YOUR job. They'll listen to you where they will not listen to me.

Why should I care?

You keep talking about what Black people need to do and I just am not feeling you until I see you put at least equal time into white folks' input into the problem.

I don't imagine that what black people should do is much different than what white people should do. Be supportive of off-track kids. Look to disrupt situations where adults are actively screwing up kids.

Why should I care?

Because if my judgement of you changes, the response you get will change.

Markedly.

Ok. I have no problem working on breaking that cycle. As definitions of racism go, this one surely is beyond controversy.

Yes and no....,

Because it is a mechanism amenable to clinical observation - it should indeed be beyond controversy. As you perhaps noted, the article did not address the aggregate occurrence of the subject event - simply the test event(s) and explanatory hypothesis. The application to aggregate behaviors was my own explanatory extrapolation.

Because this mechanism is a human universal that you can self-observe in the course of your very own ordinary waking state, if you choose or are chosen to, it is accessible to personal validation. What happens in your *mind* when you hurt or are hurt? What is lost in the moment when you unconsciously injure another, or, reflexively buffer against being injured? By much that you've said, it's clear that you personally understand this process at the social level, and have now been made aware of a possible neurological mechanism. Of course the rabbit hole of neurophysiology and depth psychology may go FAR DEEPER than this simple substrate correlation....,

I think you understand the therapeutic power of timely intervention (breaking the cycle) and the incalculable value this can yield in terms of improving the subjective prospects of another. This would of course also yield benefits in terms of increasing the aggregate richness of interpersonal communion, broadly. I think you have pondered this in your heart more than a great many people DW.

I do believe this was one of those things learned by epiphany, although I don't recall the exact moment. I do recall thinking, with a bit of awe, that I'd just learned something profound, something important which had been missing from my analysis of life.

Main Entry: epiph·a·ny
Pronunciation: i-'pi-f&-nE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -nies
Etymology: Middle English epiphanie, from Middle French, from Late Latin epiphania, from Late Greek, plural, probably alteration of Greek epiphaneia appearance, manifestation, from epiphainein to manifest, from epi- + phainein to show -- more at FANCY
1 capitalized : January 6 observed as a church festival in commemoration of the coming of the Magi as the first manifestation of Christ to the Gentiles or in the Eastern Church in commemoration of the baptism of Christ
2 : an appearance or manifestation especially of a divine being
3 a (1) : a usually sudden manifestation or perception of the essential nature or meaning of something (2) : an intuitive grasp of reality through something (as an event) usually simple and striking (3) : an illuminating discovery b : a revealing scene or moment

And you had. I am so glad you used the word epiphany. It is precisely why I made the odd statement if you choose or are chosen to because I believe that having such an epiphany is far more extra-ordinary or accidental than most folks are inclined to believe. Because you have characterized it as an epiphany - I am confident of your subjective appreciation of the non-ordinary nature of this rather basic realization. Because it is precisely here that the element of controversy enters our discussion.

Think of all the many who have not shared your extra-ordinary moment of realization. Extrapolate from your own experience to consider what it means for the majority of others who have not experienced a similar realization. Think about what this means in terms of the conscious awareness or lack thereof of so many other people. On both sides of this modulus of hurting and being hurt - on an individual level, something profound and irreplaceable is lost in those moments. The enormity of unconscious loss accruing to a culture which can be defined in no small part as a 400 year integral of such moments? THIS is why you should care.

As I reflect on this and what it means for my children, I find the situation more than a little daunting. Think of all the many people who believe themselves moral and good and just - who have never personally experienced this most fundamental realization.

And at some risk here...my own experience, which I think generalizes a bit. While I wasn't raised in any sense a superioricist, somehow my parents neglected to get it sunk in to me that the various races were human in exactly the same way. I had to learn that for myself, somewhere in my 20s. Relevant, I'd missed learning it earlier despite exclusively pleasant interactions with Blacks.

First, I think, you're at less risk than you could have been by volunteering this. I've said before if you come with respect and reason you will generally get a hearing from Black folk. This holds even when we think you're wrong (for the record it appears to me you're short a little data and a few algorithms rather than straight wrong).

Second, what cnulan said.

Third, with your own statement in mind, can you answer your own question: "why should [you] care?" And that ain't a collective "you."

Lastly, if you asked an equivalent question on Little Green Footballs, what would be the collective response? If I asked why I should care about white people's issues, what percentage of white folks would you estimate would brand me as a racist? Hell, I got called racist once because I capitalize Black (as in Black folks) and not white (as in white folks).

Ok, now it's sunk in.

I had made the assumption that my need for the epiphany was anachronistic, a relic of past times.

Cnulan, using my own description as evidence, suggests that this was a rare event.

And I see how this yields the basis of a perspective on racism which I didn't understand until yesterday. If indeed white people in general are lacking this understanding of humanity, they're inevitably going to betray this deficiency by their actions and words. And by being human, we're very much describing the pain of rejection.

I'll try thinking like that for a while.

From Where We Stand:

And there are many, many White people who consciously attempt to bridge the gap. But because they believe the problem is one of individual belief their efforts are flawed. Seeing Black people are still angry and wondering why their openness has no effect, they naturally take the rejection of their personal gestures as a personal rejection…it's almost impossible for a person not to.

Letting you know I'm not calling on [collective] you to shoulder the whole burden. Just the part only you can fix.

"There are many endings and many beginnings and there is always between ending and beginning the very briefest of moments and in those moments change, deep volatile change, is possible. To find that moment, to grasp it, to change within it, that is the thrust of evolution. That is the moment of chaos, of a higher order, the Disorder of the Gods, but order nevertheless,. And to change within that moment takes the most terrible of wills. But it is possible. And then change becomes not evolution but exaltation. Once I was in that moment, that crack between ending and beginning, but I was without will." from The Book of the Night by Rhoda Lerman

Individually, we must each of us overcome a great many internalized and automatized misbehavioural reflexes (unconscious processes or daemons). Interpersonal communion requires that when you reach out, the party you reach out to must be able to respond and reach back. Self-consciousness in the moment is key to this. To know this is to have the possibility of *working* on one's self and of helping another to work on himself/herself. The will to be understanding and the will to be fearless in the moment are two sides of the very same coin.

Our culture doesn't value and consequently doesn't provide very many methods for doing this hard internal work on ourselves.

A story from today.

High achieving high school girl. Indian (from India). Dark.

She's a senior this year, and is in a position to select her college. She really can choose. Not only are her credentials good enough that she expects a full scholarship to an ivy league school, if necessary her parents can afford any school. She's born and raised in California, in a multi-racial context. She visited schools on the east coast (Princeton, MIT, Harvard, Brown), and rejected one, Duke.

I asked why.

She felt uncomfortable. She thought her skin color had been negatively noticed.

So how is this relevant?

I analyzed it in the context described above, and concluded that maybe her skin color _had_ been negatively noted. Not by policy at Duke, which I'm sure is a highly ethical institution. But by some individual. Maybe even a low-skilled attempt to make her feel welcome.

She had no such report from the other schools.

But I wondered how often she'd had that experience during her school years in California. I didn't ask.

Still sorting it out.

I've accepted that the incidence of whites who really do not grasp the nature of humanity is higher than I had thought.

I caught the honesty in your discussion from the first at Blogcritics.

California is SO multicultural, the young woman probably had few issues. It's like, when everyone is special then NO ONE is special.

We all know the phenomemom. Whites think racism is a thing of the past. Blacks explain to Whites that racism is alive and well in the 21st century.

I've not been among those who disputed this claim. However, I didn't know what to make of it. I belived that Blacks experienced racism, because I believe that reports of experiences are seldom lies. People tell us what they experience.

Accepting the report of experience as genuine however does not imply that presented with the same situation, I believe I would have that same experience.

So this is what's changed about me. I now understand that I would have the same experience. If my self were to be put into a black body, I would experience racism too.

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Cnulan observes the value of being willing and able to grasp a moment of learning.

I'd like to point out that cnulan seized a moment as well. Cnulan recoginzed the situation for what it was, and recognizing what could happen, made it happen. He had thought this thing through, and produced an intellectually compelling analysis in the moment.

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It's a small thing, I guess. Who am I? One guy. One anonymous poster on the World Wide Web. One step forward of many in sorting life out.

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p6 created a forum which welcomes the intellectual discussion of racial issues. He created a body of prior work, and creates stimulating analysis on a daily basis. One doesn't have to be especially observant to see that it's a lot of work. I don't know what p6 hopes for as a goal, but I do hope he feels rewarded.

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One last thing I came across while thinking this out. Is it a matter of opinion whether the various races are human in exactly the same way? For example, it is a matter of opinion whether one race is better than another.

But I came again to agree with cnulan. This is an observable thing. With a minor amount of investigation we can see for ourselves. All of what we call human, all the pain, all the pleasure, all the love of others, works totally independent of race. It is not a matter of opinion. It is a matter of fact.

I now understand that I would have the same experience. If my self were to be put into a black body, I would experience racism too.

That is huge.