On point

Submitted by Prometheus 6 on October 25, 2005 - 9:09am.
on

Mr. Robinson hit it this time. Parents of folks my age went out of their way to hide the realities of racism from us. Folks my age can remember their first racist encounter very well. 

What Rice Can't See
By Eugene Robinson
Tuesday, October 25, 2005; Page A21

Like a lot of African Americans, I've long wondered what the deal was with Condoleezza Rice and the issue of race. How does she work so loyally for George W. Bush, whose approval rating among blacks was measured in a recent poll at a negligible 2 percent? How did she come to a worldview so radically different from that of most black Americans? Is she blind, is she in denial, is she confused -- or what?

After spending three days with the secretary of state and her entourage as she toured Birmingham, where she grew up in a protective bubble as the tumult of the civil rights movement swirled around her, I have a partial answer: It's as if Rice is still cosseted in her beloved Titusville, the neighborhood of black strivers where she was raised, able to see the very different reality that other African Americans experience but not to reach out of the bubble -- not able to touch that other reality, and thus not able to really understand it.

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Submitted by kspence on October 25, 2005 - 9:34am.

i was thinking about this article as i woke up, given the news and all.  

how do the folks with parents like rice's, think politically now?  are they more likely to be conservative?  if rice's parents were average, then her behavior is still unexplained.
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on October 25, 2005 - 10:00am.

Don't worry about Rice.  We need to worry about our other so-called brothers and sisters killing one another left and right every hour on hour, at the minute and each passing second.  Address this much needed attention matter.  Get opinions on this.  White folks did it in the past, now we're doing it to each other.  Would Martin Luther King (to name a few) be proud of US now?

Submitted by Temple3 on October 25, 2005 - 10:06am.

I can't speak for the accuracy of the article, but it seems as though the author is attempting to depict "a life unexamined." As we have discussed many times before, privilege allows the luxury of ignoring the immediate. It sounds as if Condi has always led a fairly privileged life. After all, the issue of the CRM was not that all Black folks were uneducated and mired in abject, irredeemable poverty. At the bottom of our humanity is our ability to choose. There are millions of black folk who grew up in similar economic circumstances and who would patently reject the premises and prerogatives of her closest allies. It seems as though, much like Clarence Thomas, Condi represents an extreme case of alienation from a broader cultural collective. I would argue that the answer to her politics is much more personal than the privilege of her parents. Politics is often personal that way. Condi and Clarence have a great deal in common to suggest some tension with any black community.

I will say that I believe the failure of numerous generations of black parents to inform their children about the breadth, depth, and nature of racism has undermined our ability to hone a scientific approach to our world. Racism is not something to solve - not be the source of a myopic worldview that relegates "colors" to immutable roles. The solution has not been adequately or accurately pondered by many of our folks. I see Condi, then, as part of that continuum. She is one of millions who've thoroughly dipped in the Kool-Aid. She is not alone and probably not the worst offender.

Still, she is responsible for her choices, not her parents.

Submitted by Natalie Davis on October 25, 2005 - 10:19am.

For better or worse, Rice thinks for herself. She doesn't march in lockstep to please people. (Well, unless those people are Repugnicans, although she has differed from the GOP mainstream by publicly stating that she is "mildly pro-choice.") She puts her ideology -- perhaps one informed by privilege -- before melanin, which I can't fault. If there is anything I do admire about her, it is that. Certainly I disagree with her on basic philosophies and politics and such (as I believe any right-thinking human would), but my disagreements with her have nothing to do with her skin color. I would disagree with her if she were purple in hue and would believe what I believe whether my skin was green or blue. Having a certain pigmentation shouldn't mandate how a person thinks or what a person believes, and it is ridiculous to expect a person to hold particular viewpoints based on the amount of melanin they have. I so wish people were allowed to be individuals and were not expected to conform for the sake of conformity. And what does "average" mean, anyway? Does it mean thinking a certain way because that is what the masses expect? Does it mean ignoring one's brain to please the herd? Seems to me to be a horrid way to form one's thoughts and beliefs.

Submitted by cnulan on October 25, 2005 - 10:40am.

her evident lack of empathy suggests a corresponding lack of conscience. this palpable deficiency - imoho - is at the root of our collective antipathy toward the ruling junta and its token ideological kneegrow exemplars.

Submitted by dwshelf on October 25, 2005 - 11:04am.

So Robinson looks at Rice. What he sees is confusing.  So far so good.

He tries to make sense of it:

It's as if Rice is still cosseted in her beloved Titusville, the neighborhood of black strivers where she was raised, able to see the very different reality that other African Americans experience but not to reach out of the bubble -- not able to touch that other reality, and thus not able to really understand it.

The problem is, this paragraph (and the entire editorial) is about Robinson, not about Rice.

I'm not suggesting that Robinson is dishonest; in some ways he's like me. He's overly willing to generalize from his personal existence.  He asks himself the question, "what kind of life structure could get me to think like Condoleezza Rice?".  And that's the answer he comes up with. Robinson knows that most black people think more like he does than like Condi does, so he concludes that Rice must have that precise life structure in place which would convert a generic black person into a Condoleezza Rice.

It says nothing at all about Condoleezza Rice.  It ignores the possibility that, you know, she wasn't generic to start with.

Spence concludes: 

if rice's parents were average, then her behavior is still unexplained.

I find "unexplained" to grant the dignity I think Dr. Rice has acquired over her life.

Submitted by Prometheus 6 on October 25, 2005 - 11:19am.

Would Martin Luther King (to name a few) be proud of US now?

 

If he were alive, yes...because the whole dynamic would be different if he and Malcolm X hadn't been assasinated. 

Submitted by kspence on October 25, 2005 - 11:20am.

I don't understand your last sentence dwshelf.  

Submitted by kspence on October 25, 2005 - 11:26am.

Natalie, your statement is confusing as well.  Rice is very partisan.  She does not have a single policy preference that we are aware of, that does not sync with the Republican Party.  Based on public statements both before and after she joined the current administration, there is probably something like a .90 correlation between her attitudes and that of the Republican Party.

How is this thinking like an individual?
What is the difference between her marching in lockstep with Republicans, and some hypothetical black person marching in lockstep with other blacks?  The obvious answer is "melanin."  But it is not clear to me why marching in lockstep based on melanin--particularly given white supremacy and hypersegregation--is any worse than marching in lockstep based on party affiliation.
Submitted by cnulan on October 25, 2005 - 11:31am.

To me, her lack of embeddedness in a discernable community suggests something freakish and far from dignified. Both personally and theologically, I find her monastic lack of community not only undignified, but immoral as well.

Submitted by Prometheus 6 on October 25, 2005 - 11:42am.

kspence:

how do the folks with parents like rice's, think politically now?  are they more likely to be conservative?  if rice's parents were average, then her behavior is still unexplained.

 

Consider this: circa 1960, her upbringing was considered flawless. And look at the result. It worked for her...the exception that proves the rule. All her hook-ups came from folks who considered her one of the good ones, and as much as I think one should I really don't expect a human to give up what works personally. It's the same pattern as "power concedes nothing without demand."

I don't think Ms. Rice's behavior would be considered bad at all had Nixon not implemented the A.S.S. (American Southern Strategy). She would have been another aggressive, talented sister...and in fact would still be considered so if she simply didn't help the party that was obviously dedicated to repressing Black folks.

Temple3:

It seems as though, much like Clarence Thomas, Condi represents an extreme case of alienation from a broader cultural collective.

I think Connerly is a better example than Thomas. I get the feeling Thomas wasn't much isolated from the collective.

Natalie:

Having a certain pigmentation shouldn't mandate how a person thinks or what a person believes, and it is ridiculous to expect a person to hold particular viewpoints based on the amount of melanin they have.

Is it ridiculous to expect humans sharing common experiences to respond in common ways? 

The point being, Ms Rice did not have those common experiences.

DW:

It ignores the possibility that, you know, she wasn't generic to start with.

Ms Rice's backgroud is very well known. 

cnulan:

her evident lack of empathy suggests a corresponding lack of conscience.

One or the other will do, and frankly neither is better or worse than the other.

Submitted by Natalie Davis on October 25, 2005 - 11:56am.

Kspence, I have already noted that she is on the record as being in the GOP minority with her views on reproductive choice. But in answer to your question, mindless marching in lockstep, IMO, is always wrong. Any intelligent person would reach opinions and conclusions based on their own beliefs, values, experiences, and education. And that varies for each person, regardless of their background or physical appearance.

Cnulan, I suspect your concern is her lack of embeddedness in the discernable community iwith which *you* have decided she should be allied. That says something about you. I disagree with Rice on most things, but in what way is she undignified? Does dignity necessitate conforming in the way *you* see fit? As for being freakish, what's wrong with that? Some of us fly our freak flags with pride. How is that immoral and how does that assault your theological and personal beliefs? Must everyone asquiesce to the prevailing paradigm regarding societally acceptable roles? And who are you to say she has a monastic lack of community? You may be correct in that assessment, but how do you know that? Do you know her personally? Some people don't choose their friends based on their pigmentation. That is just reality.

Personally, I take few people's word on any matter. I make up my own mind, identity politics be damned. And I wouldn't want to be a generic anything. I just want to be me, honestly and authentically. Perhaps Rice is just being herself, however repugnant we may find it.

Submitted by cnulan on October 25, 2005 - 11:56am.

In my usage P6, empathy is the capacity for feeling one's being-duty toward others. conscience is the realization of one's being-duty sufficient to compel action.

By the yardstick of orthodox ethics, Dr. Rice is a morally deficient person. hopefully these clarifications will stave off any ill-considered apologia for the doktor rooted in the erroneous notion that she is being judged parochially (^;

Submitted by Temple3 on October 25, 2005 - 11:57am.

P6, nice to infuse King into this conversation. It seems to me, that from a material standpoint, he may have had a similar childhood to that of Ms. Rice. Moreover, his parents could not be blamed for inculcating an essentialist paradigm in their son that espoused the innate moral inferiority of whites. King's development as an intellectual (precocious college cat at the age of 16) and maturation as leader-intellectual-activist-servant demonstrates that parental privilege does not mandate one's interpretation of the world. King's affection for and dedication to the poor was not coincident with, but in contrast to, much of the clerical leadership in his era.

To paraphrase cnu, Ms. Rice is a kneegrow-poligetic, co-signer of the ignoble proclivities of this junta precisely because she chooses to be. Her own ideology suggests there are no external factors that merit consideration beyond her personal choices. As such, in no way shape or form are the presumed failings of the black community to blame for her position, nor is the relative wealth and power of the white community to blame. And yet, this rings hollow because our actions and values exist in relationship to other actions and values.

Still, the follow-up question persists - "Why?" Is the question, "Why is Condi alienated from black folk?" On some level, this may precede the question of whether or not she should serve ANY interest shared by a sizeable percentage of black folk. Does she owe anything to a collective based on phenotype if her lived experience and body of life choices places her beyond a shared experience? Maybe Condi does not feel isolated from black folk. Maybe she feels as though she is organically connected. Maybe, to quote cnu, she's just a "gnerd"!!

I certainly believe that Condi espouses values that would be consistent with honorable service to any downtrodden group: loyalty (regardless of the deficiencies of the collective or its leadership), willingess to lie on national tv (sometimes, a little creative license is a good thing), willingness to fabricate unreliable tales in the absence of compelling empirical support (data, schmata), willingness to travel the world in support of an agenda that is unlikely to garner support (been around the world and I, I, I can't find my...WMD?). These traits would move any energetic neophyte to the top. She has tactically useful values - she's on the wrong team. So, why is Condi on the wrong team?

Submitted by Natalie Davis on October 25, 2005 - 12:05pm.

P6: "Is it ridiculous to expect humans sharing common experiences to respond in common ways?"

Personally, I think it is ridiculous to expect anything of humans. I hope for kindness from other humans, I hope for responsibility, I hope for empathy and fairness. I have learned to expect nothing.

P6: "The point being, Ms Rice did not have those common experiences."

So how can she be condemned for what she did not experience? I condemn her because I find her beliefs and actions, on the whole, disgusting, but not because of anything regarding her skin color. I oppose her party for many reasons, including its dedication to oppression of those it considers "the other," but IMO, any decent human would, whatever her or his melanin level. Am I saying I don't consider her to be a decent person? Yes. But it has nothing to do with her appearance or ancestry -- it has to do with what I see as her failings as a human being.

Submitted by Temple3 on October 25, 2005 - 12:07pm.


that's priceless. a little preachy/judgy, but priceless.

Submitted by Prometheus 6 on October 25, 2005 - 12:07pm.

empathy is the capacity for feeling one's being-duty toward others. conscience is the realization of one's being-duty sufficient to compel action.

Assuming your definitions, conscience isn't possible without empathy.

If it was just us I'd ask what word you'd use for the commonly understood concept that is generally called "empathy."

Submitted by Prometheus 6 on October 25, 2005 - 12:11pm.

Natalie:

Personally, I take few people's word on any matter. I make up my own mind, identity politics be damned. And I wouldn't want to be a generic anything. I just want to be me, honestly and authentically.

Interestingly enough, you tend to find yourself on the right/moral side of the discussion. You have had the collective experience, plus one or two from collectives I am not in. I don't think that's a coincidence, and it obviously hasn't reduced your individuality. Truly attending to truly collective needs never does...it simply sets the platform from which you launch your individual endeavors.

Submitted by Prometheus 6 on October 25, 2005 - 12:14pm.

P6: "The point being, Ms Rice did not have those common experiences."

So how can she be condemned for what she did not experience?

I certainly haven't. Don't know anyone who does, actually.  

Submitted by allaboutgeorge on October 25, 2005 - 12:18pm.

That live discussion is going on now.

Submitted by Nmaginate (not verified) on October 25, 2005 - 12:18pm.

I want to piggyback on P6's response to:

Would Martin Luther King (to name a few) be proud of US now?

First, those who make those rhetorical questions should do more honest reflection and inspection before thinking what they suggest is some type of self-evident truth.  That means they are required to fact check their presumption with what MLK (or Malcolm X) did say in their day.

Somehow, people trying to make those arguments seem to believe or ascribe to a curious type of romanticism which pretend as if [1] Black "vice", etc. is a new phenomenon and [2] that MLK's and, certainly Malcolm X's "Civil Rights Advocacy" (for lack of a better term to incorporate both men and their philosophies) were not tied to their positions against and search for solutions for such Black "vice."

It's Intellectual Laziness like that that, IMO, is just as problematic.  Exasperated sentiments in such rhetoric are hardly persuasive and hardly reflect a desire, like that of Malcolm X, someone who lived the life of Black "vice" and changed (hmmm...) or MLK to unconditionally stand up against a society that underwrites Black "vice", amongst other things.

Submitted by Natalie Davis on October 25, 2005 - 12:23pm.

After re-reading, I had to mention this:

P6: "All her hook-ups came from folks who considered her one of the good ones"

Now, that is repugnant on its face. Takes me back to being 9 years old: I happened to overhear a piece of a conversation in which the mother of a playmate said to another woman that it was OK for her kid to hang out with me because I was "a good one." Yes, I was a nice, polite kid, but I play toady to no one and never have. Despite my parents' admonishments to respect elders, I promptly told her off -- in front of her children -- and never, um, darkened their doorstep again. Later, Mom and Dad, who allowed their multiethnic global-citizen daughter to choose her own friends -- and encouraged me to think for myself -- asked why I no longer brought Andy around. When I informed them of what had happened, they told me how proud they were. But then, my experiences started with parents who taught me always to be proud of who I was and to allow no one to disrespect me. Hadn't thought about that in quite a while...

If Rice isn't aware of how those who enabled her hookups were thinking, she is oblivious to the obvious and self-loathing to the core. And if she did know, that is just sickening. In either case, accepting favors from people holding those sorts of attitudes is indeed immoral and shows a severe lack of awareness and dignity. That is a justifiable criticism.

Submitted by Natalie Davis on October 25, 2005 - 12:41pm.

P6: "Interestingly enough, you tend to find yourself on the right/moral side of the discussion."

I try.

P6: "You have had the collective experience, plus one or two from collectives I am not in."

Considerably more than one or two, but you and I define the collective differently. My collective is the human race; I am fortunate enough to belong to a variety of subsets. If I see a fellow human in trouble, I spring into action. It's what I do. The reasons for the trouble, in the process, must be noted and addressed. If a child is being oppressed because of the color of his skin, the pigmentation-based oppression must be faced and defeated. If a gay person is being oppressed because of whom she loves or desires, the sexuality-based oppression becomes the target. If a woman is being oppressed because of her gender, sex-based oppression needs to be attacked. To me, it is all of the same thing. Perhaps different methods must be employed for specific injustices and specific situations, but fundamentally, it is all the same thing and my mind filters it all using the same prism. That is what I believe and how I operate, using my experiences, principles, ethics, and morals as a guide.

P6: "I don't think that's a coincidence, and it obviously hasn't reduced your individuality. Truly attending to truly collective needs never does...it simply sets the platform from which you launch your individual endeavors."

I would agree wholeheartedly. I suppose that brings up the question again: To what collective, if any, does Condoleezza Rice align herself?

Submitted by Temple3 on October 25, 2005 - 12:52pm.

"Columbus, Ohio: During the Alabama trip, did anyone address Rice's reported remarks to Fox News that she wasn't affected by the civil rights movement? I find it curious she would make such a statement and then mention her friendship with her friendship with Denise McNair a couple of weeks later. It almost seems she has different messages for different audiences.

Eugene Robinson: That's an interesting paradox, because I believe both things are true. I believe she lived in Birmingham mostly unaware, as she has said, of the civil rights storm that was swirling all around her. And I know that she was indeed a friend of Denise McNair, who was killed in the infamous church bombing. It's hard to see how both those facts can coexist in one person, but I believe they do."

I'm not a psychologist, but this sounds like some sort of terror-induced schizophrenia with a healthy dose of Patty Hearst complex thrown in for good measure. Denise McNair was killed by a bomb in a church in a country that purports to be something it has never been. This nation has seldom been uglier than at that moment. If this reality exists within her and has not been dealt with in any way, her last few years are going to be a doozy. I don't want to be in that nursing home. Either the relationship to McNair is a fable, or she is really in for a rough road. I suppose she could go to her grave and an unreconciled empty vessel (I'm sure the memoirs will prove unrewarding in any measure at addressing this), but if you're gonna go out like that, what the hell was the point. If it's not a life of service or a life of sharing accomplishments (nulan's recognition of monastic isolation), then what's the point? Oh, there's some real stuff here.

Submitted by cnulan on October 25, 2005 - 12:58pm.

Her own ideology suggests there are no external factors that merit consideration beyond her personal choices. As such, in no way shape or form are the presumed failings of the black community to blame for her position, nor is the relative wealth and power of the white community to blame. And yet, this rings hollow because our actions and values exist in relationship to other actions and values.

Still, the follow-up question persists - "Why?" Is the question, "Why is Condi alienated from black folk?"

Consciousness and Conscience are based in memory. Quite simply, the good doktor has chosen to forget where she came from.

Cnulan, I suspect your concern is her lack of embeddedness in the discernable community iwith which *you* have decided she should be allied. That says something about you.

yes?

I disagree with Rice on most things, but in what way is she undignified? Does dignity necessitate conforming in the way *you* see fit?

If you disagree with Rice on most things, why the apologetics? One's way of life and one's belief's - after all - are one's polity, are they not?

As for being freakish, what's wrong with that? Some of us fly our freak flags with pride. How is that immoral and how does that assault your theological and personal beliefs?

Since we know she's hardly an ascetic, her relative isolation and alienation is what I'm speaking to. Any proclivities aside from her noteworthy alone-ness is of no consequence to me.

Must everyone asquiesce to the prevailing paradigm regarding societally acceptable roles?

LOL!! You find my perspective conventional?

And who are you to say she has a monastic lack of community? You may be correct in that assessment, but how do you know that?

Her biography clearly indicates that she is the end-result of serial patronage, having never demonstrated a capacity for engendering constituents. If the doktor had ever been unselfconsciously embedded in any community, outside the one which raised her and toward which her life's story is one of an acute allergic reaction she would not have been an acceptable candidate for occupancy in any of the positions to which she's been serially appointed.

Some people don't choose their friends based on their pigmentation. That is just reality.

Morally-well people don't abandon the friends, family, and community that made them. That too, is a reality. The good doktor has forgotten that formative phase of her life and remembers only the interests of her patrons.

To quote Art McGee; Calgon, take me away!

Submitted by dwshelf on October 25, 2005 - 12:59pm.

I don't understand your last sentence dwshelf. 

I find it troublesome when black posters feel entitled to heap foul proclamations upon Condleezza Rice  on the basis that she's black but doesn't think like the poster.

Disagreeing with Rice is perfectly fair.  Degrading or de-blacking her is not.

I found your posting to avoid any such thing, and was expressing (while trying to avoid claiming to represent you, see the other thread) agreement with the dignity I observed you to grant her.

Submitted by dwshelf on October 25, 2005 - 1:34pm.

It ignores the possibility that, you know, she wasn't generic to start with.

Ms Rice's backgroud is very well known.

Do you believe it possible P6 that one's background could doom one to being generic? 

Submitted by Natalie Davis on October 25, 2005 - 1:34pm.

Cnulan: "If you disagree with Rice on most things, why the apologetics?"

Because I believe in treating everyone -- including those with whom I disagree -- fairly and humanely. I understand that you view the situation through a particular prism. Mine differs; my family and my world has always been multi-ethnic, and I loathe conforming to anything for the sake of conformity. And personally, I have no problem with "alone-ness." In any event, Rice has the right to choose her own community or lack thereof. As Kurt Vonnegut wrote, and I paraphrase here, the family one chooses (which can include relatives, friends, what have you) often can be more valid and healthy than the one into which one was born. Ask someone who grew up in a toxic family or community whether there is truth to that.

Cnulan: "LOL!! You find my perspective conventional?"

From what I have seen of it, yes. Painfully so.

Cnulan: "Morally-well people don't abandon the friends, family, and community that made them. That too, is a reality."

I get that. But how do you know she has abandoned the friends, family, and community in which she was raised? As Eugene Robinson wrote, Rice grew up apart from "average" people.

Dwshelf: "I find it troublesome when black posters feel entitled to heap foul proclamations upon Condleezza Rice on the basis that she's black but doesn't think like the poster."

Hmm... I find it troublesome when anyone does that. What does pigmentation have to do with it?

Submitted by dwshelf on October 25, 2005 - 1:39pm.

Morally-well people don't abandon the friends, family, and community that made them.

Morally-well people don't abandon friends, family, and community based on politial disagreement.

Morally-well people don't describe political disagreement as rejection.

Morally-well people love and support one another despite political disagreement.

And so on. 

Submitted by cnulan on October 25, 2005 - 1:41pm.

Assuming your definitions, conscience isn't possible without empathy.

Damn skippy!

If it was just us I'd ask what word you'd use for the commonly understood concept that is generally called "empathy."

guilt?

man, you know how overused the term empathy is in the common parliance? muhfukkas don't experience anything approaching genuine empathy outside their immediate family members, or, people to whom they've become romantically attracted. Many of us, by the way we act toward our very own peeps, can't muster a halfway decent erg of real emotional content for those folks either!

take away the stirring music and jarring video, most folks can't even get up a moment of gluttony-guilt for tragedy victims. denial and or suppression of the feelings associated with shared humanity is absolutely foundational to the American way of life. you know there's more regard for dogs in America than for fellow human travellers.

that's why I'm so pessimistic about the power of words to effect the moral high colonic that this country desperately collectively needs.

Submitted by dwshelf on October 25, 2005 - 1:42pm.

Hmm... I find it troublesome when anyone does that. What does pigmentation have to do with it?

Well this is one of those perilous generalizations from personal observation, but I've never observed a white person to degrade or de-black Rice.   I have observed a lot of degradation directed toward Rice.  I concluded that there's something regarding pigmentation which seems to make some people feel entitled to that kind of thing.

Submitted by cnulan on October 25, 2005 - 1:58pm.

Because I believe in treating everyone -- including those with whom I disagree -- fairly and humanely. I understand that you view the situation through a particular prism.

The doktor's intimate complicity in American foreign policy would be a sufficient prism in this case.

Mine differs; my family and my world has always been multi-ethnic, and I loathe conforming to anything for the sake of conformity.

Good. You'll fit in right nicely hereabouts Natalie, welcome to the porch. We not only have background in common, but you get my immediate respect for sharing the temerity to post in your own name

But how do you know she has abandoned the friends, family, and community in which she was raised? As Eugene Robinson wrote, Rice grew up apart from "average" people.

Because I'm familiar with more than one such appointee and have personally observed that alienation from the interpersonal communion of blackness is a prerequisite for admission. Not my rules, but the fact of the matter is that she cannot belong with us and belong to them.

Submitted by gatamala (not verified) on October 25, 2005 - 1:58pm.

Look, I'm no fan of Condi's policies.  But face it, although her policies are undeniably shortsighted & downright nefarious you have to give her SOME credit for being able to play the game  - even it is only for her benefit (does/should one play the game for someone else?).  Remember Condi the NSA?  "I believe the name of the document was 'bin Laden Determined to Attack America'." Think about it, isn't it a [twisted] measure of some progress that not even SHE was fired after Sept. 11????  At least she puts on a more accurate "face" on America.  I know this may not mean much to some of you, but to those of you who have lived abroad you KNOW that worldwide perception is as important as domestic reality. 

As to the comment about her not bringing anyone black w/ her to State, those wacky neo-con views are only completely followed by a alavish, but powerful minority.  There are black conservatives, but how many black neo-cons are there?  Condi would only help her own ideological progeny anyway.  That's how Washington works.

I smell the odor of "sell-out" in this article & don't really like it.  Hell, I'm a liberal/progressive & don't necessarily subscribe to our traditional views on identity politics. 

Submitted by Prometheus 6 on October 25, 2005 - 2:00pm.

 Do you believe it possible P6 that one's background could doom one to being generic?

Truly attending to truly collective needs never does...it simply sets the platform from which you launch your individual endeavors.

Submitted by Prometheus 6 on October 25, 2005 - 2:02pm.

Morally-well people don't abandon friends, family, and community based on politial disagreement.

Morally-well people don't describe political disagreement as rejection.

Morally-well people love and support one another despite political disagreement.

There are no morally well people in this country. 'Cept me. 

Submitted by Prometheus 6 on October 25, 2005 - 2:03pm.

I concluded that there's something regarding pigmentation which seems to make some people feel entitled to that kind of thing.

 

That's so stupid, I get to write a whole post about it. I'll base it on a comment from the live discussion George linked.

Submitted by Prometheus 6 on October 25, 2005 - 2:05pm.

If it was just us I'd ask what word you'd use for the commonly understood concept that is generally called "empathy."

guilt?

Okay. That seriously works. 

Submitted by cnulan on October 25, 2005 - 2:21pm.

from the other live discussion

As a white person I can only offer my observation as an outsider, but it seems to me that leaders in the black community are hell-bent on rejecting Condoleeza Rice as a role mode becuase she isn't "black" enough to understand the problems of the black community.

Sometimes I think she understands these problems all too well. Black people sometimes seem to be so busy judging each other "blackness" that's there's no room left for the hopes and dreams that part and parcel of being human. Shouldn't dreams of achievement come first, and blackness second? Such tremendous pressure to be "black" enough, like being "feminine" used to be for women. I wonder what would happen if the black community would give this woman some well-deserved credit for trying to work within the system, rather than wholesale rejecting this approach.

the very possibility that there could exist an interpersonal communion of blackness sure does furrow outgroup brows, don't it? LOL!!! You'd think there was an historical record of some or another form of reverse jim crow, but that has never been the case among God's most exogamous people, we jes grew and some folks are simply incapable of comprehending that fact.

Submitted by kspence on October 25, 2005 - 2:29pm.

Natalie said:

"Kspence, I have already noted that she is on the record as being in the GOP minority with her views on reproductive choice. But in answer to your question, mindless marching in lockstep, IMO, is always wrong. Any intelligent person would reach opinions and conclusions based on their own beliefs, values, experiences, and education. And that varies for each person, regardless of their background or physical appearance."

....

Natalie I believe you said she was slightly pro-choice.  Being strongly pro-choice would no doubt place her in the minority.  I am not sure that being "slightly" pro-choice does.

Most people's beliefs and values come from social interaction.  Take religious preferences for example--while there are a number of people with Christian parents who may not attend church, there are few people with Christian parents who themselves do not self-identify as Christian.  Same thing with Party ID.  Rice here is the exact same...which brings me back to my question.  I read your comments as congratulating Rice for not adhering to the "black box", but she's in the "GOP box" isn't she?  
Submitted by kspence on October 25, 2005 - 2:39pm.

One of the problems we're dealing with in general is that the media is caught up in psycho-analysis and horse race handicapping rather than substantial political analysis.  This columnist travelled with Rice and got to see her up close and personal.  

I remember the first time I saw her smile and laugh on camera.  Her face literally lit up the screen.  I hadn't seen anything like it--in one moment she transformed my reaction towards her.  
But what the hell does that have to do with politics?  It has something to do with public OPINION--I'm willing to bet that if we ran an experiment showing one group of blacks her video testimony and another group of blacks the audio transcripts we'd have two different reactions.  And that's important.
Besides that though, we don't really get much real information from how her parents raised her.  We get fifty plus comments on a blog entry...but that's about it.   
Submitted by Natalie Davis on October 25, 2005 - 2:52pm.

"guilt?"

"Okay. That seriously works."

It sure does. In fact, I don't trust most people to spell or pronounce the word properly, much less be open to truly feeling empathy for anyone outside themselves. And that's a shame, because it is true that conscience is not possible without empathy. This nation -- hell, this world -- is sorely lacking in people of conscience, those who feel and act.

Cnulan: "welcome to the porch"

Thank you! I tend to be more of a lurker than a poster, and P6 and I go back a ways in cyberland.

"We not only have background in common"

Paisan!

"but you get my immediate respect for sharing the temerity to post in your own name"

For me, it is a means of making it clear that I stand behind what I say and take full responsibility for it. (I do recognize that being able to post under my own name is a luxury that plenty of equally principled and accountable people don't or can't have.)

Submitted by Prometheus 6 on October 25, 2005 - 3:12pm.

P6 and I go back a ways in cyberland.

 

Member 38 of 376.

I considered complaining that you didn't join in more often, but you take it the way you get it, and you like it that way sometimes.

Submitted by Prometheus 6 on October 25, 2005 - 3:13pm.

One of the problems we're dealing with in general is that the media is caught up in psycho-analysis and horse race handicapping rather than substantial political analysis.

 

Thank you. 

Submitted by Temple3 on October 25, 2005 - 3:21pm.

i've always considered you to be a duplicitous fiend - you know, the kind of guy who says he knows nothing about racism in America, but is well versed in the nuances of post-Holocaust Germany...but this is really interesting - even for a guy like you.

as you know, i seldom engage you - precisely since i think it's absurd (so, you do not need to respond)- however, this bit of nonsense has caught my attention. my question with respect to your linking pigment and entitlement would be this: "Do you get your crack from Pookie and Ray Ray or from Muffy and Biff?" You've proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt that YOUR suppliers have the best shit this side of Afghanistan.

have a nice day.

Submitted by Natalie Davis on October 25, 2005 - 3:38pm.

Gatamala: "I smell the odor of "sell-out" in this article & don't really like it. Hell, I'm a liberal/progressive & don't necessarily subscribe to our traditional views on identity politics."

Same here.

Kspence, her exact phrase was "mildly pro-choice." That is not part of the party platform -- look at the brouhaha over Harriet Miers. God's Own Party isn't interested in and doesn't reward anything remotely connected to being anything but solidly anti-choice. The fact that she announced that publicly in those words earns her a few points for independent thinking, or it should. (Or perhaps she is merely playing the game so people will be less inclined to think she is a tool...)

And I suppose I am, well, freakish. My mom and my late dad are/were lifelong Roman Catholics and Democrats. I was a Republican and I fled the Papists. Not out of rebellion or to reject my folks, but because I had to be true to what I believed. The story continues: Became disillusioned with the GOPs when I realized that one can not separate social policy from fiscal policy. Voted for an Independent when I cast my first ballot for president. Became a Democrat. Became disillusioned when it became clear that the Dems were as fucked up as the GOPs and that the party's principles were nonexistent. I am a registered Independent who voted for Nader in 2000 and for Green David Cobb in 2004. The fam was not thrilled, but they know I must be true to what I believe. That is what my parents taught me to do. Despite our political and religious disagreements, we all love each other dearly (I suppose we are morally well). And they are proud of me for not being a sellout (which is how a few of my relatives label Rice).

Cnulan posted this excerpt from the live discussion: "Black people sometimes seem to be so busy judging each other 'blackness' that's there's no room left for the hopes and dreams that part and parcel of being human."

I would not have worded the statement in the way in which this poster did, but I do understand where he/she is coming from and I can't disagree with it in general. Many -- though not all -- people who identify as black do indeed judge the so-called "blackness" of others. For myself, I look at a person's humanity (how they behave, what they believe, how they treat other humans) and accept no definitions or categorizations but my own (while knowing full well that others are defining and categorizing me as they see fit).

Submitted by Temple3 on October 25, 2005 - 3:38pm.

what game is she playing? the last time i checked, this reference was used with respect to folks who had another primary objective - an ulterior motive - a mask that grins...if you're suggesting she may be the spook who sits inside the room, you may be right, but that would be the only basis for arguing that she is playing the game...otherwise, she is the game. maybe she's picking her spots and choosing the right moment to take a single action on behalf of those not invited to the game. suggesting that she is playing the game should be a provable sentiment - not just a statement that is intended to engender sympathy. she doesn't need it.

don't get it twisted...in most instances, the game has not been that no blacks can play...the game has been that blacks can't play on their own terms. whether you're talking about military power conflicts in africa from the 15th-19th centuries and divide and conquer or civil rights job and political appointments for brownbag black folk, the game has remained remarkably stable. during the height of slavery, there were black folks with money, with freedom, with influence...and some played the game in service to their collective - and some were the game acting against the interest of their collective. the same dynamic has existed since then. i don't think you're suggesting that condi is "playing the game" in a manner akin to adam clayton powell or reginald lewis or even oprah. what are you suggesting? just because you're black and in a position of influence does not mean you're playing the game...you may be playing a game, but it's not the game.

Submitted by Natalie Davis on October 25, 2005 - 3:57pm.

P6: "I considered complaining that you didn't join in more often, but you take it the way you get it, and you like it that way sometimes."

You sound like my mother. :)

Number 38, eh? Cool.

Seriously, you know (I hope) that you are one of the bloggers at the top of my (very short) most respected list. Our foci may differ at times (though only incrementally), but we both want the same things for the present and in the end. Anything we can do together in terms of addressing issues, dispelling myths, and building community and pride is, IMO, a privilege.

To that end, I no longer have the job that took up far too much of my time and patience, so I am in a better place to dive in a bit more.

Submitted by ptcruiser on October 25, 2005 - 4:11pm.

"As a white person I can only offer my observation as an outsider, but it seems to me that leaders in the black community are hell-bent on rejecting Condoleeza Rice as a role mode becuase she isn't 'black' enough to understand the problems of the black community."

The real problem here as I see it is not what black leaders are allegedly doing or not doing with regard to Sr. Rice's black identity card, but why do so many whites believe that black people need to regard Sr. Rice as a role model to emulate. If black folks choose not to clasp Sr. Rice to their collective bosom and speak in high and low places of her in tones usually reserved for Rosa Parks or Coretta Scott King, I fail to see what harm this may do to black people or the Republic.

Sr. Rice's potential as a political foil to the ambitions of Mrs. Clinton may suffer as a result of her not convincing a sufficient number of black folks to cast off their objections to the policies of the Republican Party as a simple misunderstanding, but, perhaps, the emerging new model minorities that so many white Americans are increasingly enamored of can make up for this anticipated vote deficit. In any case, Sr. Rice's champions should take a deep breath and be assured that black folks will give Sr. Rice a fair hearing. On the merits alone, let's be honest here, what more does she deserve or has earned from them?

Submitted by cnulan on October 25, 2005 - 4:45pm.

The real problem here as I see it is not what black leaders are allegedly doing or not doing with regard to Sr. Rice's black identity card.

Some folk even have the audacity to protest that the doktor is being de-blakked! LOL!!!

To your point PT, the $1,000,000 question is

why do so many whites believe that black people need to regard Sr. Rice as a role model to emulate?

I'm also sure you've noticed - even in text - how clearly their agitation and frustration radiates in complaints that so many of us are unmoved by the collective gesture embodied in their one little grain of Rice. Implicit in this agitation is the presumption that we're wrong for not embracing her as we might a true hero of the lumpenegrotariat...,

Submitted by Natalie Davis on October 25, 2005 - 5:03pm.

Ptcruiser: "If black folks choose not to clasp Sr. Rice to their collective bosom and speak in high and low places of her in tones usually reserved for Rosa Parks or Coretta Scott King, I fail to see what harm this may do to black people or the Republic."

Well said.

"the emerging new model minorities that so many white Americans are increasingly enamored"

The 21st-century version of "the good ones?"

===

Temple3: "i don't think you're suggesting that condi is "playing the game" in a manner akin to adam clayton powell or reginald lewis or even oprah."

Oh, gosh no. I wouldn't classify her alongside any of those people. I've met Oprah Winfrey and Condoleezza Rice is no Oprah Winfrey, much less a Rosa Parks or Coretta King. No, IF Rice is playing a game -- again, IF; I only posited the possibility of it, and I do mean "a game," NOT "the game"; good catch on your part -- she is trying to play a game of appeasement, a la "See, folks, I can veer from the party line if I want." Color me cynical, but I view her appearance to pay tribute to those four little girls in the same way. I am not convinced that she feels any true connection to the tragedy that befell those beautiful children. I suspect she is trying to appease people -- and to exploit her acquaintance with one of the girls -- for the purpose of boosting her cred. Most libs (regardless of hue) won't buy, and IF she is playing some sort of game, she likely knows that (unless she is . But you are correct: Rice is in no position to play the game; I never intended to suggest that. And I think you are right when you say that "black folks will give Sr. Rice a fair hearing" -- and that's about all she merits from where I sit.

Submitted by Temple3 on October 25, 2005 - 6:23pm.

natalie, i was actually talking to gatamala about the "game" thing. is that you also? and BTW, that was ptcruiser who said black folks will give her a fair hearing. thanks for the points of clarification...common ground feels like a good thing.

Submitted by Natalie Davis on October 25, 2005 - 7:18pm.

No, I am not I had mentioned Rice perhaps playing a game, and therefore assumed you were addressing my comment. My bad, but yes, common ground rocks.

Submitted by gatamala (not verified) on October 25, 2005 - 10:34pm.

Temple,

The game I referred to was merely the game of attaining personal power in Washington policy circles, NOT the game of playing a role with another ends in mind.  :)

Besides, I think Condi is acting in her own self-interest.  Maybe, in her minds she thinks she's helping the "collective".  We may not like it, but THEN what?  What are we going to do individually when our pleas for someone to act on our behalf fall on deaf ears?

 

Submitted by Prometheus 6 on October 26, 2005 - 12:02am.
I don't see pleas...I see passing of judgement.
Submitted by Temple3 on October 26, 2005 - 8:28am.

What to do?  What to do? 

First, petitions based on moral suasion are, generally speaking, obsolete.  Appeals based on objective reason are similarly ineffective.  The question, then, is what type of lever shall be applied.  The lever, like so many web sites, is under construction.  The elements are cultural, economic, political,  social and physical.  The lever will be built by individuals IN organizations committed to a combined practice of these five principles.   Organizations that build power in these five areas will be able to advance platforms, personnel, policies and more to fulfill their agenda.  I would suggest that there are as many ways to achieve this end as there are creative individuals in any one space.  Find or create that practice in your life, share the practice, build a future.

Second, I would say there are a number of issues here with respect to Condi that are substantive, but not likely to generate much discussion/action within traditional liberal political circles.

  1. The Foreign Policy Platform of Blacks in the US - Black leadership in the Democratic party still do not use foreign policy as a litmus test in evaluating or anticipating the policy and practice of candidates.  Support is seldom, if ever, withheld on the basis of foreign policy positions.  At present, the US policies on agricultural subsidies (supported by the current administration) have a great economic impact on Africa, the Caribbean and Brazil than do these aid packages.  Moreover, the aid packages are saddled with excessive administrative costs.
  2. The Development of a Cadre of Policy Leaders - The difficult work of policy analysis requires a comprehensive skill set that is both qualitative and quantitative - unless you are closely allied with the demagogue of the month (in which case, you needn't be qualified (See FEMA).  A cadre of analysts working day and night, night and day in some coordinated fashion to resolve the issues of African people is nonexistent.  It would be logical for this or a former Secretary of State with some tie to African people to consider operationalizing such an activity.  It is not clear (and certainly not obvious) that this consideration has entered the mind of either Rice or Powell.  Nations and collectives do not sustain success without some committed action to predict and shape the material world. 
  3. If Ms. Rice's position results from the nurturing support of ideologues and such, I am called to question what is being done on the other side of the aisle to cultivate similar leadership in the EXECUTIVE BRANCH of government.  Charismatic legislators are conducive to sexy sound bites - and seldom much more.  I raised the name of Adam Clayton Powell earlier because he is the exception that proves the rule. 
  4. If Ms. Rice's social and political perspective actually results from the manner in which her parents raised her - and she became Secretary of State, what is it that other parents need to teach their children?  If these lessons are transferable, can a measure of cultural education and political affinity also be inculcated, and if so, how?
  5. And more pointedly, why have Democrats, since 1877, pursued a policy of conciliation with the South to the extreme detriment of black folks?  Certainly, there have been episodes of fluctuation (Executive Order 8802, Kennedy's communique to MLK, LBJ's Title I and Headstart programs), but the definitive - essential - paradigmatic actions of the Democrats have been to restrict...localize...diffuse black political power while garnering black votes.

Ms. Rice's work with the Republicans cannot be viewed in a vacuum.  It exists in a socio-political continuum.  I believe that cnulan is absolutely correct in discussing monastic isolation as a seminal element of her identity.  It may be presumptuous of us to have this conversation, but for public figures, such scrutiny constitutes the fine print of the job description.  Personalities aside, her presence, practice and personality provide a great focal point for pressing some serious questions to her most vocal opponents.  Finally, if responses to these inquiries were to come, I would be listening for expressions of "interpersonal communion" around principles of understanding, commitment, integrity and justice.   Answers beyond that scope are of little utility. 

Submitted by ptcruiser on October 26, 2005 - 10:30am.

"The Development of a Cadre of Policy Leaders - The difficult work of policy analysis requires a comprehensive skill set that is both qualitative and quantitative..."

Excellent post!!!

Everything that you wrote below requires and deserves a response. Not for the sake of argument, however, but for the purpose of initiating and continuing a discussion on a matter of critical importance. I want to wash some dirty laundry here and I am announcing my intention so that folks don't feel compelled to argue that point but to focus on the issue I am raising. And it is this: The lack of focus and interest on qualitative and quantitative policy analyses within the political leadership including staff of the black polity at local, state and national levels is, to be blunt, nothing short of disgraceful and embarrassing.

This is not to say that there are not large numbers of black people who are interested in and quite capable of performing the required analyses on public policy issues. It is my opinion, however, based on long first hand experience and careful observation that blacks possessing these skills sets are generally ignored by black political leadership and by white liberals and progressives who often claim to be acting for the best interests of the black community. (Republicans and conservatives represent an entire different set of problems in this same area. They will not ignore blacks who want to address policy issues as long as the blacks accept the their premises about the causes of certain problems in the black community. )

Submitted by Temple3 on October 26, 2005 - 11:27am.

my experience aligns with yours 100%. the laundry, by the way, is dooky stained, funky and far, far away from the nearest washboard, homemade soap or river.
Submitted by cnulan on October 26, 2005 - 12:41pm.

Gentlemen,

Having made the observations I've previously made concerning the local black political machinery in KC - i.e., money grubbers keeping a tight grip and bottlenecking the political process - would either(both) of you care to comment why in your experience you have found this to be the case? What appears to you each to be systemically broken?

I'm looking for causal commentary. Is it a systemic personality type conflict? Is it the result of ill-telligent manipulation by folks operating the political machinery? Are black leadership egos too big to cohabit organizational space with black mentats? The natural capacity for getting people to follow does not necessarily or even often coincide with being the smartest person in the room.

My learning center elders know and comment on this all the time. They've worked diligently to bring together a variety of folks to collaborate on a defined project basis. This seems to have worked, but by no means has it caught on - either in the nationalist peer circles in which these brothers operate, or, in the local political sphere.

Take this instance for example. There is currently a groundswell of NAACP led support for the current KC public school superintendant Dr. Bernard Taylor. To say that Dr. Taylor's tenure has been underwhelming in terms of achieved results or articulated vision would be paying him high praise indeed. Nevertheless, the NAACP has turned out over 150 preachers who are now actively lobbying the school board to renew Dr. Taylor's contract. The overarching concern is that the superintendent stays a known black quantity irrespective of his demonstrated leadership and strategic value to the children in our district. e.g., he just about jacked up the best and highest performing school in the district, Chick Elementary - and he and one of the former old guard school board members conspired to take out the principle of that school She sued them and won and the school board member got sacked and the superintendent had to back the phug up. But that type of chicanery is par for the course with this administrative junta.

Submitted by Temple3 on October 26, 2005 - 1:14pm.

Having made the observations I've previously made concerning the local black political machinery in KC - i.e., money grubbers keeping a tight grip and bottlenecking the political process - would either(both) of you care to comment why in your experience you have found this to be the case? What appears to you each to be systemically broken?

I'm looking for causal commentary. Is it a systemic personality type conflict? Is it the result of ill-telligent manipulation by folks operating the political machinery? Are black leadership egos too big to cohabit organizational space with black mentats? The natural capacity for getting people to follow does not necessarily or even often coincide with being the smartest person in the room.

I take it straight to the flicks...Braveheart.  When Robert the Bruce is advised by his father to betray William Wallace it is not because he doesn't believe in the rightness of their cause, the inhumanity of the British, the need to shank Longshanks, or that Wallace is a capable leader.  It's because he did not believe the time was right to strike the death blow.  The father was clear that the English empire would live far beyond that moment and that the immediate loss of power, influence and resources to his family would be irrevocable.  In addition, he stood to gain considerably by authoring the betrayal of Wallace and organizing the nobles against him. 

In such a scenario, the "smartest person in the room" has a large, luminescent target on their back.  The forces stacked against the smartest person in the room are organized by the most powerful person in the room and supported by the most ruthless person in the room.  If the smartest person in the room has the advantage of being either one of the others, there is hope.  In the absence of an additional quality, that intelligence will go the way of William Wallace - and will be surprised when the moment of betrayal is revealed.  After all, the moment of betrayal is often light years before the moment of fulfillment. 

Risking one's neck and the nest egg established for one's progeny is not to be expected.  Negotiated settlements reflect a conscious decision to forego excellence, paradigm shifts, rigor and justice for the pursuit of sustainability and security.  It is worth noting, however, that this practice invariably results from sustained, long-term exposure to extreme terror tactics.  American Blacks have certainly been exposed to such tactics.  Similarly, the Vichy French were aware of what might happen without capitulation.  I believe the extensive writings of the ROMANS are particularly instructive in understanding what behaviors may be expected of populations facing the prospect of total war.  The case of Carthage as a template for annhilation may be useful here.  It was the practice of William of Orange, of LongShanks and it was the european and arab policy of transport during the trade in african humanity.  The American domestic policy (north and south), similarly, was one of imposing terror.  Public lynchings, whippings, rape, etc - were practiced for centuries with legal sanction.  I'm not so sure a social sanction has or will ever be imposed.  The American Black practice of conciliation, then, to be fair has been replicated in Korea, Europe and elsewhere - and is a logical consequence is living in a room with far more powerful/ruthless folks.

What propels groups away from a practice of conciliation (invariably led by a materially prosperous "middle class") is an organizing cultural principal that asserts an authentic identity principle organized around the contradictions of personal-collective identity and imposed material scarcity. 

Submitted by Temple3 on October 26, 2005 - 1:39pm.

damn, nulan, i guess we're 3 for 3 with the politick-hoes.
Submitted by ptcruiser on October 26, 2005 - 2:27pm.

I think that Temple3's example is quite apt and serves to explain some aspects of the behavior of the black leadership contingency at least when that leadership or segments of it are facing an issue with long term consequences and there is a decided lack of clarity about the possible risk entailed. I think, however, that these life and death situations do not occur that frequently even in the rough and tumble world of black politics.

I think that black leadership is extremely risk adverse but all political leaders and groupings share this trait. It goes with the territory. What I find deeply troubling is not the fear of avoiding adverse consequences but the noticeable lack of interest in simply exploring and sifting through the range of possible outcomes of a policy decision and its effect on the black community.

I am not arguing against the role of politics in making policy decisions. I am arguing against a refusal to think through the consequences of whatever decisions are being contemplated and to think about them at times and in ways that are separate from one's own narrow self-interest.

The behavioral and attitudinal factors that contribute to this problem are as follows:

1. Overemphasis on charistmatic styles of leadership

2. A deep seated fear and suspicion of being intellectually inferior

3. A lack of experience with and knowledge of the public policy process

4. Intra-group distrust

5. A tendency to view all dissent or differences of opinion as disloyalty

6. Work avoidance

7. Poor staff recruitment practices and training

8. Provincialism and xenophobia

Submitted by Temple3 on October 26, 2005 - 7:10pm.

i haven't met a black elected official with an economic development agenda. i certainly have never met one with a cultural agenda. i see their role as "stewardship" over the resources of the community in service to their financiers. #1 is all you have when #2 and #3 are a certainty that results from #5. after all, to maximize the effect of #1, it is important to stimulate #4, build fawning incompetence through #7, and avoid scrutiny by leaning on #8. most of these folks could be characterized as ignant, selfish, greedy-ass big mouths who know how to turn a phrase and piss away millions/billions in order to ride in a fancy car and take pictures with ofays. i was gonna say don't get me started, but alas, the ball is rolling.

Submitted by ptcruiser on October 26, 2005 - 8:13pm.

I beg to differ. You have met many black elected officials with an economic agenda but the economic and financial goodies they were seeking to create was not for the benefit of the constituency that elected them to office. As CN correctly points out too many of these officials fail to consider what is in the best interests of the people they swore to serve upon their election or appointment to office.

The eminently famous Willie L. Brown, Jr., for example, who is no slouch in the intellect department - I once watched him talk for 45 minutes about the pros and cons of a tax bill that was before his committee and not refer once to his notes - three years after he was first elected to office was routinely appearing before San Francisco's Redevelopment Agency Commission representing developers who were proposing projects that would displace the very same black people whose votes had made it possible for the then Assemblyman Brown to become the first elected black official in San Francisco.

Shifting gears slightly - I find it interesting, but not at all puzzling that black Republicans have failed so miserably in seizing on the plainly evident failures of traditional black elected officials who are overwhelmingly members of the Democratic Party. The black community is in dire need of a countervailing political force and many, many black people - whatever their socio-economic status - recognize this fact. Black Republicans, however, have so foolishly tied their apron strings so tightly to the national agenda of the Republican Party that black people do not see them as being credible alternatives to what they already have no matter how much what they have falls short of what they need.

Submitted by Temple3 on October 26, 2005 - 9:10pm.

You don't have to beg to differ.  I didn't say they don't have economic agendas of a personal nature.  I said they don't have economic development agendas.  Diversified housing, infrastructure development, capital formation and job creation are not on the short list of things these folks know how to do.  But, every last one of them has a picture of Bill muhfuckin' Clinton on their wall.  I think that's my new litmus test - picture of Slick Willy = Kiss My Ass.

Those oaths, coincidentally, are the meaningless pronouncements of souls already sold.  Simply, these cats are not independently wealthy and therefore rely on external patronage.  In this respect, they are EXACTLY like many black conservatives (Connerly, Williams).  As such, neither group can fill the leadership void because both are by and large rejected by their so-called "natural constituency."  Black folks are not turning out in large numbers to vote for these folks.  Most of them run unopposed because the local Democratic party would never consider running a candidate with ideas.  There is too much at stake when it comes to committee memberships, housing subsidies, and the ability to dole out patronage through churches and senior centers.  The game is real simple.  If you do the math, you don't need more than 15% of the eligible voters to win one of these elections - but folks who eschew huxterism for the hard work of building sustainable communities don't have time for the glad-hand foolishness.  Who still does that other than pimps, preachers and other snake-oil salesman? 

In some respect, politicians are like schools - you don't get back more than you put in.  As such, neither is accorded much respect in this society - and the folksy traditions of America have invariably ridiculed both schools and politicians.  It's not like the fire department. 

Submitted by ptcruiser on October 26, 2005 - 11:24pm.

I beg to differ.

The tongue was deep in cheek.  

Submitted by cnulan on October 27, 2005 - 8:26am.

So the school board revoked Bernard Taylor's ghetto pass last night. The ball in play is stability and control over the social network that is deeply tapped into the District's $270 Million annual budget. Straight up, simple and plain.

Quotes of note in the aftermath;

The NAACP was one of several local African-American organizations — along with Freedom Inc., the Black Agenda Group and the Baptist Ministers Union — that issued statements of support for Taylor, praising the job he has done as superintendent.

Understand, this is a very strange assortment of bedfellows - but the common element uniting them is constituent interest in patronage flowing from the district's annual budget.

Not everyone, though, agreed.“It saddens me that some black people have such low self-esteem and low expectations that they are willing to settle for ineffective black leadership,” said attorney Clinton Adams, who is active in the school district. He is African-American.

Clinton Adams and Linwood Tauheed are the two highest profile gadflies steadily on the District's case.

Taylor was thrust to the top, becoming Kansas City’s 20th superintendent in 30 years, running a district that then served more than 28,000 students on a $270 million budget.

When he went after Audrey Bullard, principle of afrocentric and district highest performing school, Chick Elementary, I wrote him off as a liability, insecure and incompetent to serve in the position to which he'd been appointed.

Submitted by cnulan on October 27, 2005 - 8:47am.

additional confirmation that Condoleeza Rice is exactly the type of bubble-girl Robinson thought she was, and then some;

IN PRESIDENT BUSH'S first term, some of the most important decisions about U.S. national security — including vital decisions about postwar Iraq — were made by a secretive, little-known cabal. It was made up of a very small group of people led by Vice President Dick Cheney and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.....But it's absolutely true. I believe that the decisions of this cabal were sometimes made with the full and witting support of the president and sometimes with something less. More often than not, then-national security advisor Condoleezza Rice was simply steamrolled by this cabal.

The full extent of neocon structural and managerial incompetency noted at VC

Submitted by ptcruiser on October 27, 2005 - 9:05am.

"The ball in play is stability and control over the social network that is deeply tapped into the District's $270 Million annual budget."

 

This is a situation that has been repeated over and over again in urban school districts throughout the United States. Philadelphia, Washington, Detroit, Oakland, San Francisco and Los Angeles are some notable examples that come immediately to mind. These are situations in which calls for racial solidarity work to the detriment of the black community because the real aim of this appeal is to protect and preserve the perogatives and privileges of a group of people who feel they are entitled to feed at the public trough. It is in fact, their access to and control over budget and personnel decisions that gives them any sway at all in the community because they haven't demonstrated any degree of competency in any other areas.

Submitted by cnulan on October 27, 2005 - 9:34am.

the real aim of this appeal is to protect and preserve the perogatives and privileges of a group of people who feel they are entitled to feed at the public trough. It is in fact, their access to and control over budget and personnel decisions that gives them any sway at all in the community because they haven't demonstrated any degree of competency in any other areas.

Bears repetition and direct application to the social network running America into the ground right now too. Same game, just an altogether different level of it.

On a side note, was I the only person unaware of Dr. Rice's hometown connection with Alma Powell's family?

In an article for the New Yorker, Nicholas Leman, dean of the Graduate School of Journalism at Columbia University, writes, "Birmingham had one notably rich black family, the Gastons, who were in the insurance business. Occupying the next rung down was Alma Powell's family; her father and her uncle were the principals of two black high schools in town. Rice's father, John Wesley Rice, Jr., worked for Alma Powell's uncle as a high-school guidance counsellor, and was an ordained minister who preached on weekends; Rice's mother, Angelena, was a teacher." [4] Alma Powell is the wife of former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and U.S. Secretary of State, Colin Powell. In 1967, the family moved to Denver when her father accepted an administrative position at the University of Denver.

anti-meritocratic patronage is killing this country's governance system at all levels

Submitted by Temple3 on October 27, 2005 - 11:11am.

Former Chair of Chevron's Committee on Public Policy...no wonder she was shopping in the city when Katrina touched down.

That's a nice tidbit - and it just goes to show that Gatto was right on about the demagoguery of pedagogues.

To give you a sense of scale, the entire Kansas City school district would be subsumed in 1 of NYCs 32 school districts - and would be one of the smaller districts. What's interesting to me is that these "educators" are just like the politickhoes...they don't ever retire...they go to peddle curriculum for large firms like McGraw-Hill, Jossey-Bass, etc. And you should see the staffing patterns - old men who are former principals and superintendents with tons of connections pimping the next anti-African bullshit textbook - and a bunch of young women who roll out the showcase. It's just happy hour for Monday Night Football at your local pub where some crusty ex-NFLer comes out to sign autographs and a bunch of next to naked hoochies serve up Jack Daniels...there is very little nuance here. If you've been to a conference with educators, this paradigm is fairly obvious - and the stars of these events are folks with control over local district budgets - perks...trips to South Africa, jobs for relatives, a little boot knock here and there - and it's on. Straight Robert the Bruce.

Submitted by ptcruiser on October 27, 2005 - 3:59pm.

This is a link to a column by Gregory Kane, who writes for the Baltimore Sun, about the sorry state of Detroit's schools and what the Head Negroes In Charge  did when former NBA all-pro Dave Bing attempted to do something about it.  Sad.

Submitted by ptcruiser on October 27, 2005 - 4:04pm.

Let us not forget that Chevron actually named an oil tanker after her. Shelby Steele is right. We just need to keep on pushing on and when that blessed day comes we, too, can have our names painted on the side of an oil tanker.

Submitted by Prometheus 6 on October 27, 2005 - 4:13pm.

I have to learn how to do this the way everyone else does

 

Highlight the text you want to link. On the toolbar, a link button activates. Click it and a dialog box pops up. You can take it from there, all the fields are labeled.

Submitted by Temple3 on October 27, 2005 - 4:29pm.

very interesting article, but more conflation...this article does not accurately report the state of detroit politics. i will need some help on this, but the last time i was there, detroit was heavily democratic and deep in the naacp...mcphail was a fringe city council member with little juice and a penchant for blowing up the spot on the radio...and the last time i checked, sharpton and jackson were dismalcrats who have thoroughly pimped their street cred for national electoral votes (in jackson's case for nearly 30 years) without ever holding office, being held to account, or developing a sustainable program...what do all of these folks have in common?? the democratic party and a serious investment in the status quo...what's their tie to rosa parks and dave bing?

it is not entirely honest to invoke the name of rosa parks when it is groups like the naacp that have traditionally rejected remedies like charter schools. it is precisely the class consciousness of naacp leadership that led to her installation as the first face of the movement...it turned out to be a good idea, but one wonders if the NAACP had chosen to use the face of a pregnant teen in 1955 what might have evolved. today's discussion about teen pregnancy, marriage, values and other things might be different. the leadership might have addressed this emerging class issue then.

writers on these issues of class consistently report this as a new phenomenon. that's hard to put forward...the genesis of this clearly goes back to the 1950's. check out nulan's pieces on the circulation of the pittsburgh courier in 1957...this little understood era offers an illuminating glimpse into today's class separation in black.

the naacp, as a white-funded operation, has yet to author an economic development plan for black folk. to that end, the opposition to charter schools reflects their incestuous relationship with the democratic party, teacher's unions and preacher's unions. it is, paradoxically, the organization (and its leadership) that placed ms. parks on the world stage that has so much to do with this regrettable state of affairs in the D. if nothing else, some thought must be given to why WEB DuBOIS would choose to leave this organization over issues of integration, class and economics.

dave bing is precisely the type of self-made man that is to be feared in both democratic and republican circles. city councils, after all, are like bus stops...it's the end of the road. if you've been on the city council as long as mcphail and done as little as she has, you're probably a career PTA member with some ambition and a bit of moxy - who gets paid to stir the pot. i don't know if anyone checked for donations from the teachers union or the preachers union, but i'm sure the money trail won't turn up dry. sambo never had it so good.

the dismalcrats and naacp leadership made rosa parks into an icon for a movement. in no way, shape or form does that movement celebrate the likes of men like dave bing...he is troublesome to them as marcus garvey or any other billionaire who neither needs nor seeks their imprimatur. these folks use the morality of others as a shield from personal scrutiny...they're cut from the same cloth as the moralizers on the right. mcphail is a minor player and dave bing has lost none of his luster. he will be one of detroit's favorite sons for years to come.

Submitted by ptcruiser on October 27, 2005 - 8:41pm.

check out nulan's pieces on the circulation of the pittsburgh courier in 1957...this little understood era offers an illuminating glimpse into today's class separation in black.

I'd love to read them. Where can I find them?

 

The National Association for the Advancement of Certain People contains more contradictory impulses and tendencies than the law allows or is appropriate for people who have had to struggle as much as black folks. The opposition to charter schools is of a piece with the organization's obsession in the 1970s, 80s and 90s with integrated schools.

The amount of political capital that was expended on that quixotic quest would have been better spent on organizing black folks to demand that schools in their neighborhoods be improved. But I suppose this would have been too much like right so it was better to engage in work avoidance and focus instead on getting the right mix of colors at schools even if it meant shipping black children into hostile negative environments. Whether Jamal was learning to read or not was less important than making sure that he spent 6 hours a day in the company of people who in their heart of hearts wished he would go away.