I've been intentionally absorbing all my inputs on this issue through black conservative filters.  Because I can, and, because the 2% are coming down hard against illegal aliens - with few if's and's or but's.  Personally I find the term "illegal alien" problematic. Which is why I pussyfoot with the alternative "undocumented mexican".

While I find the "bolster the border but don't criminalize the employer"  arguments prima facia self-serving, paradoxical, and ridiculous,  as much or even more than I find the catholic church's (Cardinal Mahoney's) radical stance on this issue to be self-serving - I have as yet to hear the the incisive, self-serving black partisan thesis on this issue.

The black partisan repurcussions concen me.  At this moment, I'm inclined to suspect that the black partisan repercussions are either consistent with black conservative objections, or, still very much up in the air.  I'm looking for feedback from folks who've thought it all through more deliberately than I have, or, who're interested in an extended jam session whose deliverable output will be to better frame the muhfukka than I'm able to do on my own - and which will take me further down the path to my own political stance on this issue. 

They should've sent him off world ages ago.

At this moment, I'm inclined to suspect that the black partisan repercussions are either consistent with black conservative objections, or, still very much up in the air.

And if I had the link handy, I'd give a shout out to the work Craig, Joppa, and others are doing with Mayhem Academy.

It's Jappa's baby...., http://www.mayhemacademy.com

I just got the notion of wrapping that narrative around a CMS and using it as a cultural production incentive to get kids involved with using some open source tools: http://www.mayhemacademy.org

Audacity, GIMP, Blender, Dynebolic, and Mambo 

no other medium has the potential to do more to imagine what a new world would look like.

Sho's you right!!!

In my opinion, few other media genre's have greater potential for provoking science curiousity and exploration.  Like the way competition drives creativity in HipHop, our thought is to harness exactly that force to drive creativity in the classic storyboard mode and capability as the kids are compelled to stretch to learn to utilize the digital tools.

Your intuition is on a par with you imagination brah...,

I saw two polar extremes, open borders and serious criminalization, and a very squishy middle.  So, I posed the question to every black partisan adult I spoke with at the Learning Center y'day.  In so doing, I heard a plurality of opinions.  First was an analytical chemist from Overland Park who questioned the basic fairness of the thing.  I was surprised by the conservatism of her thinking on the subject, and as I deeply respect her opinion on many subjects, I added it to my list.  What I posted here was a digest of that list.

Far and away the MOST persuasive opinion I heard on the subject came from a civil engineer who immediately referred me to Claude Anderson/Powernomics and pointed out the extent to which mexicans have been nursed at the teat of black partisan political concessions won via our civil rights movement.  You'll note that that is also on my list, but I held off any direct reference to Claude Anderson until I have an opportunity to survey his writings for myself.

Only one brother with whom I work voiced a progressive opinion - which he followed up on with me thus;

Brother Craig, really ironic that I would receive an email from my cousin in SF Ca about the issue you raised today. Following is my response to my cousin, as well as the original statement he forwarded. My cousin is Rev. Charles Tinsley, noted as one of the signers.

"We had quite a lively discussion of this issue at the center this afternoon. It is my opinion that a proper understanding of the history of this country should lead us to challenge the sheer audacity of those who, having made their way into this country by any means necessary over the past 500 years, would see fit to judge the rights and merit of those who would seek similar advantage. Class, caste and racism are the unspoken factors at work in spreading fear, resentment and hatred of only those who are dissimilar."

> Opinion Editorial Desk
> Contra Costa Times
> Saturday, April 1, 2006
> As clergy and religious leaders, we write in support of comprehensive
> and just immigration reform. Our conscience and common humanity lead
> us to recognize the stranger among us. Defining undocumented workers
> as felons will divide families and force some people to go further
> underground as they attempt to provide for their families. Defining
> faith communities and individuals who help unauthorized immigrants as felons will make felons of us all.
> There is hypocrisy evident within the enforcement-only legislation
> currently passed by the House of Representatives. We are all
> immigrants. It is clear that such legislation attempts to protect the
> privilege of earlier immigrant groups at the expense of recent
> immigrants. Our faiths compels us to act on behalf of the exploited
> and marginalized of the world, many of whom are willing to risk the
> trek to America in order to ensure that their families survive harsh
> political and economic conditions. Sadly, indentured servitude and slave-labor conditions for undocumented immigrants are increasing in the United States.
> We agree that America needs to provide secure borders, but it can do
> so without criminalizing the poor. If we wish to decrease the number
> of unauthorized immigrants in our country, we should begin by
> reconsidering American involvement in free-trade agreements, while
> simultaneously investing justly in the economies of Central and South
> America. We do well to call for living wages in both our country and
> in the poorest parts of the world. We can only provide security for ourselves as we care for our neighbors.
> To this end, we oppose legislation that makes undocumented status a
> felony or separates members of families from one another. We support
> legislation that opens a meaningful pathway to citizenship for those
> already in the United States. We support legislation that protects all
> workers, helps local communities, and restores the rule of law, while
> enhancing national security. We support the restoration of funding to
> reduce the huge backlog in family-based immigration cases currently in
> the courts. Such laws will liberate undocumented immigrants from the
> shadows, helping them come forward and integrate themselves into our
> communities, while creating an incentive for future immigrants to come to the United States within the legal structures for doing so.
> As people of faith, we will choose to live out the principles of
> compassion and care for all of our neighbors, even in the face of
> unjust laws. We encourage all people to join us in the task of
> justice, equity, and respect for those who seek the refuge of these shores.
> Sincerely,
>
> (Affiliation is for identification purposes only) Rev. Will McGarvey,
> Pastor, Community Presbyterian Church, Pittsburg Rev. Mauricio Chacón,
> Pastor, Iglesia Presbiteriana de la Misión, San Francisco Rabbi
> Raphael W. Asher, B'nai Tikvah Walnut Creek Dr. Amer Araim, Imam,
> Dar-Ul-Islam Mosque, Concord Rev. Roger Reaber, Pastor, Grace
> Presbyterian Church, Walnut Creek Rev. Jack Shriver, Retired, Walnut
> Creek Rev. Won Kim, Castro Valley Rev. Brian Stein-Webber, Director,
> Interfaith Council of Contra Costa County Dr. Harmesh Kumar, Concord,
> Interfaith Council of Contra Costa County Rev. Pablo Morataya, Pastor,
> Iglesia Presbiteriana Hispania, Oakland Rev. Sally Juarez, High Street
> Presbyterian Church, Oakland Rev. Norman Fong, Justice Advocacy and
> Caring Committee, San Francisco Presbytery Rev. Dr. James A. Noel,
> Interim Pastor, Sojourner Truth Presbyterian Church, Richmond Arthur
> Hatchett, Executive Director, Greater Richmond Interfaith Program Rev.
> Max Lynn, Pastor, St. John’s Presbyterian Church, Berkeley Dr. Joyce
> Ann Mercer, Associate Professor of Practical Theology and Christian
> Education, San Francisco Theological Seminary Rev. Dr. Charles D.
> Tinsley, Juvenile Detention Chaplain, Contra Costa County Rev. Charles
> Marks, Chaplain, San Francisco Theological Seminary

Craig's sole practical MEASUREMENT of black political power is the number of political officials.

You may be a little hasty in your assessment of "sole practical" here Spence.  If we measure the externalities involved with accomodating Mexicans, then there is a significant economic criterion (measured in hundreds of billions of dollars) around which measurable political gravity must be considered as well.

At this juncture, I'm coming down VERY HARD on the side of not only no, but HELL NO to amnesty or any other type of concessions to illegal immigration and the mexican population explosion in the United States.  That 80% of the Mexican population in the states since 1964 figure quoted to me y'day at the learning center tipped the scales in my thinking.

Please tell me what I ought to know about the pros and cons of Powernomics as proposed in Detroit.  Evidently, Latinos didn't like it from the word go.

Your intuition is on a par with you imagination brah...,

If we measure the externalities involved with accomodating Mexicans, then there is a significant economic criterion (measured in hundreds of billions of dollars) around which measurable political gravity must be considered as well.

I think for a white american to be isolationist and nativist, given the direction of the world, is quite foolish.

I think that for a black american to adopt the same isolationist and pseudo-nativist sentiment is suicidal.

"Our jobs", "our civil rights movement" from a black man seem as absurd to me as "our jobs", "our country" does coming from white folk. America is becoming the ultimate (political, economic) open source community; and to the dismay of the white middle class, so is the world. Many whites have an irresistable sense of entitlement, which makes them blind to shifting paradigms; "awake" blacks should know better.

For a black partisan to buy into the "mainstream" version of immigration reform is stupid. Like they're doing that for our sake. True, the latinos are not marching for our sake, either.

When choosing sides, we have to look at real motivations and likely results, not platitudes about fairness and legality. Then ask ourselves what side to support. And clearly, a move which de-leverages the current class/racial strata and current power structure is the choice blacks should make. Hands down.

Yet, I see blacks calling for these punitive measures and "reforms", like those french kids over there marching and picketing for the staus quo. It irks me.

Many whites have an irresistable sense of entitlement, which makes them blind to shifting paradigms; "awake" blacks should know better.

An awake black man predicates his understanding of current events on the certain knowledge of declining net energy availability and the consequences that will ensue therefrom.  Call it a "lifeboat" model of societal sustainability.  Given the understanding of what's thermodynamically real and what's pending, that open source nonsense is a vacuous, hand-waving and ill-informed bit or moralizing tripe.  It's the kind of irresponsible nonsense you'd expect to hear from a not particularly astute humanist.  It has no place in the calculus of a hardnosed, purposeful, and responsible black partisan plan or strategy.  

An awake black man predicates his understanding of current events on the certain knowledge of declining net energy availability and the consequences that will ensue therefrom. 

Plain english, please. My PhD is in engineering, not wordsmithery.

Given the understanding of what's thermodynamically real and what's pending, that open source nonsense is a vacuous, hand-waving and ill-informed bit or moralizing tripe. 

Tell me how you really feel. What problem do you have with it, since you don't even know the details of what I'm talking about? And I don't think you understand what's 'thermodynamically real" (whatever the hell that means) anymore than any other concerned person.

It has no place in the calculus of a hardnosed, purposeful, and responsible black partisan plan or strategy. 

Who made you head strategist?

It is a matter of fact that billions will die during my lifetime...,

and not because of what this nincompoop blackmore speculates about, i.e., global climate change, rather, due to the unsustainable human population overshoot that will be corrected via plague, war, and martially enforced scarcity.  the die have already been cast - as far as I can ascertain.

So, when faced with the inevitable, it would behoove black partisan leadership to discountinue the kumbaya bullshit and to commence with the lifeboat captain calculus in order to properly plan for the greatest good for the greatest number.  This means careful consideration of one's local posture vis-a-vis the clampdown headed our way.  The picture for us is not entirely rosy, nor however, is it entirely bleak.  Like the UK argument broached by blackmore, there is enough non-exhausted arable land in the US to support somewhere between 200-300 million Americans under a militarily regimented reorganization of resource consumption, labor, and use.

Figuring out which way the wind will blow is a priority, imoho.....,

So, in the context of issue at hand, what blacks should do is build coalitions with groups with the future in mind, not isolate themselves or cater to nativist chatter.

I may not agree on the details, but I also believe that the status quo is unsustainable. Substitute "corporate" for "martial". For american blacks, the solution is not to turn inwards, but to make the right coalitions and build sustainable wealth/power in the right places. No matter where the wind blows in the future, isolationism (ie, 'f**k kumbayaa') will not serve well in an interconnected world where capital and information is both dynamic and mobile.

Do you really think in your nightmare future, american blacks will be an island or a fortress unto themselves?

P6,

You know I'll observe all required barbershop/backporch protocols in your house.  Poor Keto is evidently too busy blowing hard, to have any idea which way the wind is blowing. 

For american blacks, the solution is not to turn inwards, but to make the right coalitions and build sustainable wealth/power in the right places.

What do American blacks produce? 

What are the politics of the dominant American producers?

Wealth/power - means what besides energy?

There are no permanent alliances or coalitions, simply permanent interests..., in this case, my opinion is that our long-range interests are not served by coalition building with an unassimilated population that competes with us - as well as working poor whites - at every possible turn.  It's a simple faustian choice of the devil I know over the devil I know less well.

There are no nightmares in my future.  Simply contingencies which must be systematically planned for and adapted to.

I think for a white american to be isolationist and nativist, given the direction of the world, is quite foolish.  I think that for a black american to adopt the same isolationist and pseudo-nativist sentiment is suicidal.

Had to go get dinner, ate some tasty Mexican..., anyway I felt compelled to return to the unintended irony of the above pronouncement.  "given the direction of the world"   heh, heh, heh, heh..., pure comedy gold.

While American intellectuals continue to portray globalization as a new permanent fixture of the world, writes James Howard Kunstler, the global trade fair is nearing its end. Kunstler opines that the "cheerleaders of globalization" fail to recognize that today's global economic relations are based on relative world peace and reliable supplies of cheap energy. He points to historical instances of trade relations dependent on such transient circumstances: The first phase of globalization, which began in the 1870s, collapsed in 1914 as the coal economy transitioned into an oil economy. Kunstler warns that the West's – particularly the United States' – extreme dependence on oil has produced economic distortions that may be impossible to overcome. With a military contest for control of the world's remaining oil already underway, Kunstler speculates, "the sunset of the current phase of globalization seems dreadfully close to the horizon." – YaleGlobal

Globalization Is an Anomaly and Its Time is Running Out

Today's transient global economic relations are a product of very special transient circumstances, namely relative world peace and absolutely reliable supplies of cheap energy. Subtract either of these elements from the equation and you will see globalization evaporate so quickly it will suck the air out of your lungs. It is significant that none of the cheerleaders for globalization takes this equation into account. In fact, the American power elite is sleepwalking into a crisis so severe that the blowback may put both major political parties out of business.

my opinion is that our long-range interests are not served by coalition building with an unassimilated population that competes with us - as well as working poor whites - at every possible turn.

It is significant that none of the cheerleaders for globalization takes this equation into account.

For american blacks, the solution is not to turn inwards, but to make the right coalitions and build sustainable wealth/power in the right places.

What do American blacks produce? 

I'm sure, from a manufacturing/raw goods pov, nothing significant. What do americans in general produce? Less and less. However, you don't have to directly produce something to have wealth. You just have to own the right things.

What are the politics of the dominant American producers?

To the dominant american producers, IMO politics is a game to be used to gain and maintain wealth. Corporations back politics that inflates the bottom line.

Wealth/power - means what besides energy (what a cute article-keto) ?

True wealth and power have only loose connections to energy reserves. I mean, a big takeaway from your referenced article is just that: eg., energy prices (and by extension, the pro forma value of energy companies, and by extension the wealth of the owners of those companies) have no correlation to the absolute amount of energy left. (actually, the reason this is, is because you could say that for most consumers, the supply on the supply/demand curve for oil approximates infinity; that is, they believe the reserves will outlast their lifetime)

If you get down to it, wealth and power is about perception, not facts. (BTW, one salient flaw in the referenced article is it's focus on mainstream sources of energy, oil and nuclear (which is because of the power of those industries to narrow the writer's perceptions of what renewable energy is available). Energy is quite abundant on this planet, and there are quite a lot of research projects to find ways to efficiently mine it.)

But getting back to the here-and-now, within the confines of society and our collective perception of wealth, black americans should prudently build wealth through ownership of securities and businesses.

There are no permanent alliances or coalitions, simply permanent interests..., in this case, my opinion is that our long-range interests are not served by coalition building with an unassimilated population that competes with us - as well as working poor whites - at every possible turn.  It's a simple faustian choice of the devil I know over the devil I know less well.

I never said there were any permanent alliances. And I disagree that interests are static, if that’s what you meant by permanent.

Your solution seems to me like black isolationism. Have you never heard that you should keep your enemies close? Guess what, black americans are competing against everyone now, whether it's an immigrant from mexico that just moved next door, or the malaysian half a world away handcuffed to her workstation.

Of course it's a faustian choice. When have we in this stange land ever been faced with anything less? My point is about what this particular choice should be (the less known one), not the fact that it’s a crappy choice.

There are no nightmares in my future.  Simply contingencies which must be systematically planned for and adapted to.

Yeah, well maybe I'm a bit younger than you, but I see some a rocky road ahead, and some definite nightmare scenarios. I don't see how you can systematically plan when the game is changing so fast and unpredictably, but good luck.

While American intellectuals continue to portray globalization as a new permanent fixture of the world, writes James Howard Kunstler, the global trade fair is nearing its end. Kunstler opines that the "cheerleaders of globalization" fail to recognize that today's global economic relations are based on relative world peace and reliable supplies of cheap energy.

1)Who says there is relative world peace? The world is beset with violent wars and conflicts.

2)You can believe globalization is inevitable and not be a cheerleader of it

3)You are confusing my vision of globalism with that of Newsweek's.

He points to historical instances of trade relations dependent on such transient circumstances: The first phase of globalization, which began in the 1870s, collapsed in 1914 as the coal economy transitioned into an oil economy. Kunstler warns that the West's – particularly the United States' – extreme dependence on oil has produced economic distortions that may be impossible to overcome. With a military contest for control of the world's remaining oil already underway, Kunstler speculates, "the sunset of the current phase of globalization seems dreadfully close to the horizon." – YaleGlobal

Again, the globalism this article is based on does not reflect my beliefs of the direction of the world. My vision of the future is not US-centric, or anglo-centric. It is one of an interconnected world with plenty of economic and political assymetries. The US is probably headed for 3rd world status on its present course.

BTW, just discovered this...I didn't know she passed on...

http://www.octaviabutler.com/

Can you see instances where our interests might coincide? Instances where you can leverage their reactions? Instances where you might have to understand or tolerate them?

Yes, my interest coincided very nicely at dinner this evening.  As for the bigger political picture, I believe our interests, language, and culture coincide (nay dovetail) with that of working poor whites. I am carefully studying their reactions and believe that by acting out this past week, Mexicans have injudiciously whipsawed themselves and their corpmilgov sponsors into a popular political backlash.

This is Dubai Ports World 2.0.  The more of this paradox I see, the more delighted I become with just how interesting our political climate has become.  You know that with the collective seniority of some members of the CBC, a big reversal of republican congressional gains this year could make for some exceedingly interesting power shifts in the Congress.  Can you imagine Conyers as the head of the house judiciary committee?  I relish the thought of what may be possible. 

If the mainstream behaves itself long enough there can be a successful soft landing, and a social transformation of the same scale as the Great Society. And they will behave  

HUGE phukkin IF there brah..., Americans are singularly ornery and well-armed.  I don't know how many more of these corpmilgov vs. populist whipsaws the societal status quo will tolerate. 

Embedded as I am in an intentional community, I have no qualms about my personal safety - no matter which way the wind blows, soft, hard, or otherwise. 

Energy is quite abundant on this planet, and there are quite a lot of research projects to find ways to efficiently mine it.

No Keto.  Not tar sands, not shale, nor clathrates will render up their bounty to Caesar before it's too late.  EROEI (energy returned on energy invested) is the rub in each of these cases.  There will be no deus ex machina from science, either.  No desktop fusion, no zero point energy, no conquest of Lawson's criteria.....,overshoot is real and dieoff is the cure

This is not a matter of perceptions, it's simple thermodynamics....,

my opinion is that our long-range interests are not served by coalition building with an unassimilated population that competes with us - as well as working poor whites - at every possible turn.

Can you see instances where our interests might coincide? Instances where you can leverage their reactions? Instances where you might have to understand or tolerate them?

As for the bigger political picture, I believe our interests, language, and culture coincide (nay dovetail) with that of working poor whites.

Oooooh...is that pain in my head ice cream brain freeze...or cognitive dissonance caused by the conflict between your two statements?

^{I have no ice cream...}

If the mainstream behaves itself long enough there can be a successful soft landing, and a social transformation of the same scale as the Great Society. And they will behave  

HUGE phukkin IF there brah...,

I don't know how many more of these corpmilgov vs. populist whipsaws the societal status quo will tolerate. 

Or should we think of these individuals as competitors too?

Finally I feel the fact that we can't allow for others of our kit and kin to migrate here

SNIP!!!!!!!

Shiiiiiit......, we don't take care of our own children, elders and extended family members right here at home!!!!  I got a two word proof for you KATRINA REFUGEES. Personally I got less patience for the pan-African pipe dream than I have for Mexican coalition building.  Constructive interpersonal communion right here at home within the black american community beginning in the one nearest you is priority number one for generations to come. 

Everything else is just self-calming ideological conversation

James 18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my[b] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d]And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Cn, On the matter of "legal Black immigration" I think that adding this new blood and skills, as LS points out, in my opinion can only help our community. These folks are ultimately reminded of who and what they are in short order once arriving here.

I also understand that the US does "Cherry Picking" of sorts, to determine what Black/colored getsto come here, as is the case of the matter in Brazil, some years ago, whereby, as it was reported, US state department diplomates were giving out visas to the 'lighter skinned' Brazilians, disporportionately, it was alleged, according to published reports at the time. I assume this happens in other nation with significant Black populations. Just nature of the US to do so.

As to you LS, exactly what fine print are you referring to?

Cn, On the matter of "legal Black immigration" I think that adding this new blood and skills, as LS points out, in my opinion can only help our community. These folks are ultimately reminded of who and what they are in short order once arriving here.

• Black folks are basically the same people worldwide
• 'reminded' suggests Non-American Black folk forgot they are the same people as us.
• Being on the receiving side of racism awakens their inner Black American

Oooooh...is that pain in my head ice cream brain freeze...or cognitive dissonance caused by the conflict between your two statements?

"I believe in George Bush."

given the penalties associated with even something as innocuous as giving an illegal immigrant a ride to work, much more care is going to be used to determine who is down and who is not.  the resulting process is nothing less than a modern FUGITIVE SLAVE ACT that will not only severely penalize Latinos for nothing more than being brown, and will also have adverse impacts on African and Caribbean immigrants anywhere they congregate in large numbers. 

Like I said, you can't pick and choose.

Oh yes P, your deduction of my statement that blacks being the same folks basically globally, is the reality of the matter, from a genetic point of view. We have alot of intermixture, but its not enough to diffuse our geographic distinctness that is marked genetically. At least not yet.

And yes, in my experience, some newly arrived  Afr/Car immigrants can display a type of 'otherness' from us all, as in my boy in Boston, OP.

But, as I noted earlier, there is a type of "cherry picking" that occurs when American  visas are handed out overseas, therefore this darwinian effect tends to narrow down the diversity of visa recipients, good or bad. So it is not uncommon to have some of these folks to come here with certain 'attitutes' towards us. Over time, notwithstanding OP in Boston, most overcome this sense of arrogance or otherness from us.

As to your last point, this is what I find so incredulous in many of these folks that are so afflicted with the otherness phenon, that in many of their native lands there exist local forms of racism that is endemic. Therefore, local version of racism feeds into the cherry picking of the US in allowing folks to come here.

You know, EROEI, as you put it, can be overcome. You know, oil was in the same place not so long ago. But people figured it out. I guess when it comes to engineering, I'm an optimist.

Engineering is using an understanding of 'simple thermodynamics' to problems such as our energy crisis. What makes refrigerators, air conditioners and other counter-intuitive thermodynamic systems possible is that thermodynamics is really not so simple. Get down deep enough and you can innovate.

We just have to put our minds to it.

Aside from thermdynamics, I still think that wealth is purely perception. As we will discover when the chinese and japanese perceive the Euro is a better base currency than the greenback.  (In matters economic, I'm a pessimist.)

And it's not like you're expecting us all going back to subsistence farming. Your talk of trade means you know you're not going to be independant of the mainstream, regardless of rhetoric.

P I don't exactly get at what you are trying to get at, but let me try.

As to your rhetorical question on what and who we are if oppression ends, as it relates to the American version of racism?

I actually think that as the current demographic and power structure exist, this version of racism will be "ever present." And that probably regardless of whose running things folks are going to exercise some measure of "oppresion" too maintain that control. Its just human nature, it seems, to do so.Therefore, your hypothetical is incongruent, based on this assumption of mine.

But if it should disappear, I suspect I'd be a less burdened brutha. That is, "less burdened" by the weigh of racial baggage of being potential perp/rapist at every turn or activity; less burdened by the assumption that I'm too stupid or too ignorant to understand anything solely because I'm a Black American male; less burdened because based on my credentials, I would be treated as fairly as any, and everyone else, when competing for a job or school.  Is this what you are getting at.

Spence, I think one can determine whose legal or not by investigating any indusry that tends to hire illegals and focus resources accordingly. I think the data is wquiote clear on where these folks work and who is hiring them. So they eother have the requisite documents or they don't.

Since white folks don't seem to have a problem locking Negroes en mass for transgressing US laws for whatever reason or circumstance, why the difference for these illegals. It would sure generate a bunch of jobs, as have been the situation for the mass incarceration of American Blacks, in an effort to boost rural American economies as a result of de-industrialization, for the last two decades or more. And of course, following the Civil War.

Finally, I know quite a few bruthas and others, that have been sent back to caribbean for having transgressed US law, yet no one seems to mind this. But some peole are raising holly hell so that the illegals in focus now are not rendered the same fate,. It is hypocritical and just plan wrong. Actually its a kind of self hatred that is all too situated in our community and pyche.

What type of state/federal/local resources are going to be required to actually send "illegals" back to where they came from?

How exactly are you going to be able to know when someone is being railroaded because they offended someone, or because they didn't give up the ass?

But if it should disappear, I suspect I'd be a less burdened brutha. That is, "less burdened" by the weigh of racial baggage of being potential perp/rapist at every turn or activity; less burdened by the assumption that I'm too stupid or too ignorant to understand anything solely because I'm a Black American male; less burdened because based on my credentials, I would be treated as fairly as any, and everyone else, when competing for a job or school.  Is this what you are getting at.

As far as the mainstream goes, I believe we're already a deeply engrained part of the mainstream.  I simply want to ensure that our bargaining position is maximized along every possible criterion of fitness.

G' the phrase "the needs of the many outweigh the privations of the few" and your call to "rational nationalism" don't mean anything....literally.  They are catchphrases that act as a substitute for argument.

True.

If "rational nationalism" (the only one of the two that isn't too cynical to live) has any meaning, it's "nationalism that makes sense."

The whole way this issue is being discussed nationally makes no sense. This is an economic issue being framed as a civil rights issue that will be resolved as a political issue.

Rational anything, much less nationalism, has little place here.

Spence I wish I could take credit for the rational nationalism as laid out by CN but I can't. However, on your point that the state being hampered by more spending in sending these people back. Let me assure that if it was 11 million 'illegally entered' Zulus we were discussing, they would surely find the requisite resources to send them back. And I got a funny feeling that you would not be making the same strenuous argument in behalf of these folks, the Zulus, as you've shown in the Detroit "Little Africa" matter.

But as I pointed earliar,  folks are being repatriated back to their home countries now, and for the last decade that have transgressed US laws. Are you saying that its okay for Mexicans and other latins, who have entered the nation illegally, and therefore,  flouted US law, to stay?

Finally, P we are all doomed. Don't you know that? I bet you can't name me one person that has not died or have the potential of not dying, so I don't get your point, still!

There are some real comparisons to be made between this proposal and the Fugitive Slave Act.

So make them then already..., and be sure to explain to me why I need to care given my full citizen/non-slave status within the empire?

But even if we ignore those comparisons for a moment, you still have yet to tell me exactly how we're going to differentiate between "illegals" and "legals."

They're ignored because they're irrelevant.  Just as I don't hold black soldiers culpable for their participation in the empire's criminal Iraq misadventure.

And given our financial state as a nation, I'd also like to know where the money comes from?

Money is a symbol for energy.  You tell us where the actual additional energy is going to come from to increase the carrying capacity of the finite territorial commons within the U.S. border? 

Kumbaya my lord, kumbaya....., oh lord kumbaya.....,

The whole way this issue is being discussed nationally makes no sense. This is an economic issue being framed as a civil rights issue that will be resolved as a political issue.

Rational anything, much less nationalism, has little place here.

Principally because you and Spence refuse to bring it down to the level of carrying capacity in a finite space with finite energy resources.  Your version of economics is mythopoetic, a nice symbolic just-so story and belief system.  If you want this to be a clinically rational discussion - make your arguments quantitative and real.  Otherwise, all you're doing is moralizing without regard to physical context. 

People of the word....., harumph!!!!

Principally because you and Spence refuse to bring it down to the level of carrying capacity in a finite space with finite energy resources.

Since the dollar went off the gold standard decades ago, what physical *something* has been the standard on which the value of the dollar is based?  (black gold, texas tea...., the reason cats are putting in work in Iraq!)

Money Is Not Energy
Energy companies are in business to make money – not energy. For example, economic subsidies allow ethanol companies to waste energy while making a profit. Specifically, about 71% more energy is used to produce a gallon of ethanol than the energy contained in a gallon of ethanol. [[24]] Obviously, alternative energy technologies that require energy subsidies are only viable as long as we don't need them!  From the standpoint of achieving society’s goal of a long-term solution to our energy problems, profit is simply the wrong objective for energy companies. Even without direct and indirect subsidies of $650 billion a year [[25]] it's conceivable that energy companies could make money – but lose energy – by burning one $10-barrel of oil today in order to pump one-half of a $50-barrel tomorrow. The price of oil is expected to rise sharply – and permanently – when global oil production peaks in less than ten years.

Economists Can't See It Coming
"Energy" is defined as the capacity of a physical system to do work. Over a hundred years ago, scientists pointed out that energy – not money – is the true source of the capitalist's wealth:   It is, in fact, the fate of all kinds of energy of position to be ultimately converted into energy of motion. The former may be compared to money in a bank, or capital, the latter to money which we are in the act of spending ...

If we pursue the analogy a step further, we shall see that the great capitalist is respected because he has the disposal of a great quantity of energy; and that whether he be nobleman or sovereign, or a general in command, he is powerful only from having something which enables him to make use of the services of others. When a man of wealth pays a labouring man to work for him, he is in truth converting so much of his energy of position into actual energy...The world of mechanism is not a manufactory, in which energy is created, but rather a mart, into which we may bring energy of one kind and change or barter it for an equivalent of another kind, that suits us better - but if we come with nothing in hand, with nothing we will most assuredly return. [Balfour Stewart, 1883] [[26]]

How's that political solution working for you in Iraq brah?

The empire is a republic, for the capitalist and by the capitalist.  Stop acting like this is a popular democracy when it's obvious on so many levels that it's not. 

P6, on this point I agreed. If truly and effectively enforced, employer sanctions  will go allllllooonnggggg way in curtaling illegal immigration, and of course, effective border interdictione efforts. Finally,  of course more competent governing in the states of origin of these folks will go along way also, so that they are forced to trek away from their homes and families in the first place!

The empire is a republic, for the capitalist and by the capitalist.  Stop acting like this is a popular democracy when it's obvious on so many levels that it's not.

How's that political solution working for you in Iraq brah?

Better than your attempt to change the subject...which is to say it's really fucked up in Iraq.

And no amount of political belly-aching is going to make a damn bit of difference about it one way or another.  Those permanent forward bases are under construction in Iraq because the people who comprise the actual capitalist producer class here have taken the decision that that oil is theirs. Possession is 99% of the law - and that oil backs these dollars. 

But feel free to keep promoting impossible-to-enforce-laws while trying to put other people on blast for being unrealistic.

You think?  If it was trivial to accomplish in the 30's, what will make it more difficult today?  Let the housing bubble burst, let things heat up in the Straights of Hormuz, let one of any number of variables come to fruition that negatively impact this fragile economy and I'll bet you any amount you care to wager - that you'll see a domestic re-enactment of anti-Mexican vigilantism the likes of which you can only imagine. 

The only thing I put people on blast for is sqeamishness about dealing rationally with the dark side of the crowd - given the overwhelming evidence at our disposal, and, squeamishness about coming to grips with the physical/infrastructural conditions under which we live, also given the overwhelming evidence at our disposal. 

When push comes to shove, I consider my prognosis as reflecting American societal inevitabilities.  So..., it can happen in an orderly manner via pre-emptive legislative act, or, it can happen to control the disorderly and violent backlash that will inevitably ensue when something hits the fan.   

I haven't weighed in because this shit took all damn day to read...you see I had to come in on the comic book tip...LOMF'nL.

Aiight.  Here I go.  Wish me luck.  It seems to me that the first consideration for black partisans is, "What's in the best interest of Black folk?"  It seems to me that is what defines a black partisan...That's always a loaded question, but it is imperative that a critical mass of us feel that we have the right to ask and answer the question (ideally in an iterative and collaborative process that engages community).  On the face of it - all other issues aside (including the actual legality or fairness of the law; who applies or enforces the law;  etc.)  The simple second question is, "Will the outcome be favorable, unfavorable or otherwise for black folk?"  Given that we are not a monolith, the answer may not easy, hell, it may be forthcoming at all.

Dig.  I won't rehash cuz done hashed...but I want to say that on it's face, cnu's argument is compelling because it answers these two questions in an affirmative and quantitatively defensible manner - to me.  Does that make it a moral position?  Nope.  Does he suggest that's the position?  Nope.  Does it matter?  Maybe.  Not to me.  It doesn't matter to me because of reasons I have not heard delineated here.  It's really quite simple for me.

Let's assume we were not in the Empire, but in some other locale in which we would still be Black Partisans.  Imagine a variety of economic conditions in which we might find ourselves.  It seems to me that the only position in which to argue in favor of the benefit of illegal immigration is from that of an employer seeking cheap labor.  In a non-capitalist system, an influx of cheap labor is unlikely unless it's fueled by a natural or political disaster (as in the case of Rwanda).  Therefore, it seems difficult to argue in favor of an economic position that undermines the collective position of black folk.  Beyond the borders of the United States, similar imperatives would obtain.  In a humanitarian crisis, the responsibility to support and preserve supercedes the responsibility to hire and pardon.  Therefore, I believe the relative positions of white folks on this issue to be largely irrelevant for this discussion.  I could be wrong here, but I see them as purely tangential - even though white folks might appear to be driving the conversation.

La Raza Unida - Mexican nationalism is as alive and well as any other nationalism.  I didn't root for Chavez to kick the shit out of Pernell Whitaker or Meldrick Taylor or any other black fighter.  That may not mean much, but it means I'd have to stretch to argue that Mexican labor should have the upper hand in competition with Black labor.  I'm not willing to go there.  I would argue, however, that Mexicans don't pose THE primary challenge to black folk, but their ability to depress wages in the labor market poses a significant challenge.  nulan said we can't win the numbers game, but we can win the excellence game.  more of us have to begin to play that game - because the next competitor at the door is not mexican.  Mexicans would not even begin to entertain the notion of employing and supporting large numbers of black folk in Mexico.  Does that matter?  It should.  On a certain level.  When you can't expect reciprocity, and there is common ground on an issue with an external group, you have to be crystal clear about the nature of your support.  As such, it's not clear for me where the support of a Mexican economic agenda would end for kenyatta or keto.  To me, that needs to be expressed before going forward - because if unfettered immigration and all that that entails is okay, then the supports and the tax burden and the socio-economic safety net competition is also okay...and if that's okay, then the parameters of the coalition need to be rearticulated because at present there is a significant mismatch between blacks and Mexicans.

I'm wondering how we all feel about illegal Chinese labor.  The Chinese are holding $262 billion in US Treasury debt.  It appears they need lots of oil.  I'm sure they've already figured out that the Euro is a superior currency to the dollar (keto), but have been unable to supplant the protection racket the US has extended over the House of Saud.  The Chinese and Japanese are not as slow as you think.  But they can't fight for shit...at least not now. 

A final note on black partisanship: I think it's important to consider these issues without considering white folks as much as we seem to do.  Take our special case:  as a collective, we've been in this land longer than any other collective - aside from the indigenous peoples.  If our interests in the land don't supercede our relationship with white folks and the US government, then what's the point.  Are all of our considerations merely as appendages?  An authentic relationship with this land (and its borders) must reckon with a staunch Mexican nationalism that has every intention of intruding on those borders by any means necessary.  And that may very well be cool because these borders were established through military competition.  Nonetheless, black partisan does not mean black US partisan - or does it.  If you favor unfettered immigration as a matter of principle, I think the first question matters.  If you pass on the question for pragmatic reasons (ie. LKS' position that the burden is too much to bear), then it appears to me that the real work ahead is transforming the current dynamics of intergroup coalitions.

Holla!

"I'd like to have some straight up ham-handed discussion/consideration of the implications for us of ~12 Million undocumented mexicans working and living in the estados unidos."

  P6 I'm shocked.  Shocked I say, to see that your poll suggests 5% or fewer give a damn about coalition building with other ethnic groups as a pressing priority for us.  (fyi - only one out of ~30 partisans surveyed at the learning center came down on Cardinal Mahoney's side too)

What have you cats been schmoking to get so jarringly out of touch with the folks on this issue?  What practical, historical, or evidentiary interactions support the sentimental representations I've read on this thread?  I mean damn, Spence flailing about with the Fugitive Slave Act, like a prof at J.Hopkins gonna get beatdown by a paddyroller if this law gets some teeth put into it? 

Y'all funny sometimes.....,

If you pass on the question for pragmatic reasons (ie. LKS' position that the burden is too much to bear), then it appears to me that the real work ahead is transforming the current dynamics of intergroup coalitions.

I'm more sanguine about the present moment's possibilities for black partisan coalition building with the WPW - simple as that.  Common ground is increasingly clear because the curtain has NEVER been flung this wide open on the corporatist machinations screwing them as badly as these machinations screw us.  Polls suggest and interpersonal communion confirms that a much higher percentage of WPW have learned to eschew their former belief in George Bush. Couple this with the fact that they can't spend, eat, pay medical bills, or heat their homes with an inflated sense of white privilege - I believe a charismatic thought leader could go great guns on advancing a substantive, inclusive, American agenda. 

That, in and of itself, would substantively alter the status quo.

If every illegal applied for citizenship today, they'd have the same 5-6 year process, the same criteria to meet (a relative or spouse, financial support guaranteed by a job or family). That, plus a fine for the previous lawbreaking, is pretty much the most liberal suggestion around for dealing with the people. These folks will gain skills, do better...and be replaced by more immigrants from SOMEwhere, getting paid somewhere between the local wage in their homeland and our minimum wage.

You cannot control immigration like that. And if you insist on doing that, it's not immigration control you're after.

Yes, I'm lazy and copied it from the Intrapolitics.org comments.

Just read new data that suggest that, potentially, over 1 million continental Africans are here illegally. ( Not counting the Caribbean folks) They are the invisibles in the discusion on illegal immigration, including the discussion by so called "paid thinkers." Those paid thinkers who are sooooo FOS that they actually, it seems, don't have to cite or credit, apparently worthy thought or ideas, when required.

 It seems, the "paid thinkers" are too busy bashing Negroes, and  'so' inundated by their own empirical research that they don't need to validate or cite others'  worthy ideas. Anyway, while all the talk is on, and about, mescans and other latins!  The "11 million Zulus, it seems, should go to hell. Huh "paid thinkers?"

And you are actually paid to think? Like bashing ideas like "little Africa"  in  Detroit. But nary a comment of condemnation   about the taxpayer supported middle eastern market in Dearborn or "little Mexico  in Detroit?

GFY!

Anyway, As away of showing how bruthas are dealt with en mass here. In my abode, both legal and non legal bruthas, when the police rolls on them for, say, loitering on the cuts, or in front of their building, unless you can produce a 'key' or some other form of validation for your presence on site, you go to jail. Period. Now these are Black men hanging out on the corner, in their "hood, as we do, being literally rail-roaded upstate to jail or prison. No "paid negro thinkers" dealing with this aspect of the "Fugitive Slave act!"  They are too busy commensurating over the possiblilty that US immigration laws will now have to be enforced against illegal mescans and others. 

Yeah. Because their  loitering  in communities across this country is OKAY. Its okay for them loiter for quick non taxable dollar.

 GFY AH !

What ever happen to VISIONCIRCLEJERK?

Does it make a little sense now?

Clinton did that. Didn't you get the memo.

simply assert that dumping U.S. agricultural surplus into the latinate marketplace has driven peasant farmers by their millions to near starvation, why would you expect me to make that argument for you?

Where's your immigration control plan that has even a conceptual prayer of working? Where's the great realism you claim?

I don't care about immigration control, I'm about simple, prompt, and uniform application of the laws already on the books.  That means deporting 12 million people who don't belong here ASAP.  

Redirect the funds misallocated to oversecuring air travel into the HSA uniformed and non-uniformed services.  Put those rollers in the streets and start kicking in doors just like they did in the 30's. (shades of Spence's Fugitive Slave Act revisited)

Make the border patrol the same size as the NYC police dept (quintuple its size) and use all the funds currently misallocated to public education and healthcare of non-citizens to fund it.  Simply stop educating and providing free healthcare to non-citizens, now. 

Provide a heavy arms backing to those border patrol agents with the National Guard.  If armed exchanges escalate, then good - that'll only increase the sentiment and national will to stem the flood.

As far as I'm concerned, this is a trivially simple problem to fix. 

As far as I'm concerned, this is a trivially simple problem to fix.

Like Spence said: when you can unambiguously identify the non-citizens, you'll have made a serious suggestion. Not until then.

That unabiguous crap didn't apply during the so-called "War on Drugs" - and every party to this discussion survived that "war" intact.  Me personally, having been pulled over more times than I can recall.  Here's the rub.  That so-called war was waged against citizens.  During its peak, nobody managed to make a dent in that clearly nefarious and clearly racist public policy, disparately levelled against citizens, cause it was a political 3rd rail.  Only Kurt Schmoke had the testicular fortitude to man-the-fuck-up on what was real on that one - while in public office.  Oh, and there were and are lots and lots of collateral victims of that so-called war.

The bottom line on this one is terrifically simple, and no amount of handwaving denial on your faux collective part changes the relevant facts of the matter.  Muhfukkas can be rounded up and detained until they prove their legal status - beginning tomorrow.  There is popular support for precisely such an action, particularly in areas such as the heartland where the externalities far outweigh the derivative economic benefit to the producer class.  

This is a swing issue around which WPB and WPW can amalgamate - unlike that old fake evangelical  love jesus and hate fags garbage being peddled in a handful of megachurches and around which we will never gel.  Fair and uniform application of the citizenship laws - OTOH - is rational nationalism at its finest - and just because you and Spence have an ideological objection to what's coming, doesn't mean it's any the less likely to materialize in all its ham-handed fury.

Frankly, I'm the only one on this thread making serious suggestions.  You cats are so far gone in urban consumer airy fairy kumbayaland - that you can't even begin to level a serious criticism against the legal and practical stance I've plainly and clearly articulated. 

Monday would be a wonderful jump-off point to begin the deportation round-ups. They'll be demonstrating in multiple cities, with plenty of 5-0 available to watch'em, hell, what a start! Corral they asses up and BAMMM!!!

 Watch'em?????

Let them keep waving that Mexican flag around, and I hope speck there'll be some human pinata demonstrations before too long...., 

That unabiguous crap didn't apply during the so-called "War on Drugs" - and every party to this discussion survived that "war" intact.

Rhetorical smoke belching again?  It's not obscuring the flimsiness of your arguments against pinata time here though...., frankly it looks like all your logical/factual get up and go, done got up and went P6 - mebbe you should get your logic cylinders checked, cause you're blowing smoke on this one over at Intrapolitics too.

"In the heartland?" "Popular support?"  What are the demographics? If you could even cite a poll that would be helpful.

Kansas, Missouri, Illinois. 

Sorry Spence, my demographics are restricted to public school and hospital conversations - and unwelcome intrusions on the real Work that I do.  For the past few months, I've been swamped doing training for and implementing software that I designed, tested, and documented - which process leads me to have daily interactions/discussions with everybody from nursing staff to senior executives and everybody in between.  Here to date, I've yet to hear a single healthcare worker voice support for flood and the extreme externalities it imposes on the care delivery system.

Today, I was back home meeting with school administrators to discuss the next round of grant proposals for digital media tech programs, modelled on the one I started at the ACE schools.  Interestingly, one of the schools protruding into the effort, without adding anything whatsoever to the proposal itself, other than to have its hand stuck out, primarily serves (english immersion) the children of the flood.   It took an immense amount of tongue biting and self-control not to simply get up and leave that meeting, knowing that a significant chunk of whatever proceeds/benefits our efforts engender will go to a group that has had nothing whatsoever to do with making any of it possible.  Do you imagine that there was a single black person in that room happy with this prospect?

Frankly, if I withdrew from the project, it would fail altogether.  So here I am confronted with the necessity of serving others in order to serve the constituents for whom I've Worked from the word go.  Unwanted externalities imposed even on the voluntary Work that I do.  So to me, the concerns I've expressed ar far from the hypothetical, mythopoetical concerns that I've heard you and P6 express.  You both imagine that these people are down, but in NYC and B'More, I suspect you've had a minimal amount of direct exposure.   Mexicans are among the most colorstruck and frankly racist folks I've ever encountered in my life.  Hell, you'd only need to peep Univision every now and again and take note of all the fake "blondeness" in vogue to get a vague clue about that shit.

Now, I'll defer to either one of you who's had greater personal exposure to Mexican racism.  The silence should be deafening on this point, given personal history I've previously mentioned on this blog.  I'll defer to either one of you who has taken up the issue on the daily, as opposed to simply on this thread.  I'll even defer to either one of you who regularly works with working poor folk, either black or white, and discussed this particular issue with a broad swath of working poor people. 

what you seem to be saying is that when the crisis hits through some process, whites are going to wake up and support black initiatives....while we lock up and kick out the very people who are more likely to support us because they don't have the white privilege thing blinding them.

There's no "seem" to it Spence.  Mexicans are not friends to blacks and have not proven to be effective political allies.  Working poor blacks and whites have more in common on the specific issue of deporting 12 million mexicans who are here illegally and who are depressing wages and imposing costs.  That you imagine Mexicans will "support us" speaks volumes to how little you know of many of the Mexicans who're in our midst.  BTW - Mexicans are perhaps even less monolithic than we are, and distinctions ought be drawn between folks from southern Mexico and central America and the northern Mexicans texano's who're supernumerous hereabouts. 

For the purposes of this discussion, I'm dismissing these substantive differences altogether, and still saying swift, certain, ham-handed, uniform application of the laws already on the books.  No exceptions.  Make the laws tougher, including on employers who're exploiting Mexican wage slaves, and let the process proceed with all due alacrity.

what you seem to be saying is that when the crisis hits through some process, whites are going to wake up and support black initiatives....while we lock up and kick out the very people who are more likely to support us because they don't have the white privilege thing blinding them.

There's no "seem" to it Spence. 

Thanks for tagging into this match PT with some grounded, real-world exposure and sobriety.  Frankly I'm astonished that the rationale you provided over yonder seems to have fallen on deaf ears, but here as there, certain individuals been channelling Flavor Flav, right down to his trademark BOY-EE hype!!!!

Up thread, Spence - and to a lesser extent T3 - started in on a combined fantasy fiction of pan-african and pan-carribean alliances - and angling on a variation of the Fugitive Slave Act revisited - as grounds for holding off on prompt uniform toughening and application of the law.  I really wanted to get back at that angle of engagement and put it to rest from a common sense perspective.

In Flight Capital David Heenan lays the smack down on why the U.S. should no longer encourage skilled immigration due to the fact that talented foreign nationals are here for one reason only nowadays, and that's to get the goods and to take the goods back home.  Whether actual or knowledge capital, errbody loves themselves, their own extended families, and their own homelands - more than they love America. Why folks can't simply see this from a common sense perspective eludes me altogether, but ideology it seems, clouds good judgement. Ain't nobody here to stay, ain't nobody trying to restock the skills that have departed the urban core.  These are competitors, straight up, simple, and plain.

Mr. Dixon brought this book to my attention the other day, and focused precisely on the what, why, and wherefore of why we need to monitor this flux from a competitive perspective.  Moreover, he brought the conclusive black partisan smack down on this issue by comparing the way in which foreign born talent takes the goods back home to how we as black partisans fail to act in our own interests like a country within a country - and don't emulate that pattern of acquisition and return by bringing the real and knowledge capital back to roost within our own communities. 

Now if there's a next subject for me on this theme, it's the black partisan issue of talent exodus and failure to shore up our extended family/community.  When black professional and manager class folk start acting like foreign nationals and repatriating our real and knowledge capital into our own communities, then we will have the means to barter from a position of relative strength rather than assimilationist submission.

That you can't identify illegals with any precision, so the effects of such felonization will spill...splash...over onto the Black community.

I see it splashing over into a few hundred million $$$ in construction and skilled trades work in the KC metropolitan sprawl immediately - with NO possible confusion whatsoever on the enforcement and application of the law side - WHATSOEVER!

I've said the only way to solve the illegal immigration problem...the one that started this discussion, the only issue I've addressed...is by coming down on those who hire them. They can be identified and acted against. And the repercussions, economically and socially, will be immense.

Total and categorical agreement here. The common enemy is a corporatist one.  I got nothing but love for this layer of the multi-layered solutions approach to putting the flood in check.  But I'm still all about the punishment side of laying the en masse smack down on individual offenders, because as we all now know, without punishment, there will be no "voluntary" compliance.

Moreover, without dealing with both layers of the multi-layered approach, the possible common ground moment of truth among american working poor folks is simply pushed out and further postponed, more of them know that they've been stripped of their privileges than you city boyz reckon on...., and imoho we need to leverage off that forthwith.

What are the demographics? If you could even cite a poll that would be helpful.

Cause I don't want to leave my position open to attack from an over-reliance on anecdotal or purely subjective grounds, I'll tie up the loose end this kwestin probes by simply pointing out the corporatist (senate) vs. populist (house) dichotomy that's got the immigration legislation tied up for the forseeable.

....any bill the Senate passed would have to go into a conference committee with the House — which wants to build a wall along much of the U.S.-Mexico border, criminalize all illegal immigrants in the U.S., and dramatically increase the penalties against those who help them, from businesses to churches. Looking several moves ahead in a game of legislative chess, Reid feared that the conference would produce something that looked more like the House bill, which currently has no amnesty provisions for making current illegals citizens, than the Senate version.

imoho, driving out the conflict between popular and corporate interests is what makes this issue Dubai Ports World 2.0 - and imminently worthy of the most careful possible strategery for black partisan advantage.....,

I expect no spillover or confusion to result from sending a million or so exemplary minorities back home either...., and they're keeping conspicuously quiet about it too. Guess that's because they're here working a completely different and more long-range competitive plan. 

hmmm...., wonder how it would work if I just showed up in one of the burgeoning suburbs of Beijing, worked my show, and overstayed my visa?

Having found a modicum of common ground on the corporatist crackdown layer of what needs to happen, it's time for me to feed back your logistical nightmare argument back to you in spades.  If you think that a demographic crackdown would be a complex undertaking with collateral possibilities that should be of concern to a black partisan {Spence's fugitive slave act shizz that I've hardcore derided} - what inquiring minds want to know is - if you propose granting amnesty? - exactly how you propose implementing/provisioning the amnesty?

Assuming a cornucopian carrying capacity, assuming the possibility of shared cultural and political interests (which interests are shared to my complete satisfaction with the 28 Million or so legal residents) please do tell how you go about disentangling the mystery of who's been here 2 years, 5 years, 11 years, etc? This is more of Reagan's 1986 phukkup revisited.  Granting amnesty to 3 million back then was what unleashed the body wave we have to address now.

The Senate plan could create a messy process, Wilkes said. "How are they going to know who's been in the country five years or not?"

Any Senate bill would have to merge with a House measure passed in December that centers on securing the borders and enforcing immigration laws. The House bill has angered Hispanics and has sparked protest rallies.

Since you extended the invitation...,

I propose that the ass-kicking house bill be amended by CBC leadership to include provisions that mirror the Senate's immigration path to citizenship. Any felon who has not gotten into trouble in the last 5 years will automatically be given a clean slate. Hey, the logistical nightmare proposed by the senate gives a pass to millions of foreign law breakers, why not give a clean slate to convicted felons? Non-violent drug offenders from the 80's and 90's are screwed for life.. now, under proposed legislation, foreign drug dealers could be made eligible for amnesty? Please.....,

exactly how you propose implementing/provisioning the amnesty?

how do foreign drug dealers come into the picture?

I talked about their policy preferences and their political behaviors. What do THESE tell you?

The record appears to show that they'll sponge up any affirmative concessions we exact in direct competition with us for the same.  Katrina reconstruction jobs appear as a top of mind current point of economic competitive engagement.

When they vote--those of them that can--what do they vote for?

Of the 28 million legally entitled to vote, fewer than 47% exercise that perogative.  So, off the top, it tells me that there is considerably less political engagement than with us, who vote at a 60% of eligibility rate.  Past coalition history shows that there won't be chicano support for the CBC until it becomes the chicano brown blonde caucus.....,

But what about policy?

What about it?  Provide an example illustrating how the less participatorily engaged coalition of interests will work in your hypothetical model?  It's not incumbent on me to prove your case.

Further, how does that vote compare to the white working class that you think will all of a sudden wake up?

I'm not concerned about any sudden wakeups.  I see the house bill as reflective of a groundswell of WPW and WPB awareness that shit is hella funky right now and dammit it's time for the clampdown to get underway.  Since among black partisans on the local, I've heard from only one lone Cardinal Mahoney dissenting voice, and lots of blogospheric handwaving hereabouts, aside from that there's unanimous support for a swift uniform application of the law and subsequent mass round-up and deportation operations.

But when 209 hit, most Latinos voted against it.

Where are they on expanded health care? On the ability to organize a union? On Affirmative Action? On expanded resources spent for public education?

And choosing them, even though they're more likely to spit in your face literally AND politically/figuratively EVEN THOUGH YOUR INTERESTS AND THEIRS ALIGN.

Ronald Walters, a University of Maryland professor of political science, said black civil rights groups might be doing their communities a disservice. Like President Bush, he said, they are wrong in saying that immigrants are taking low-skill jobs that Americans do not want. He believes Americans reject low wages that desperate immigrants workers keep driving down.

EVEN THOUGH YOUR INTERESTS AND THEIRS ALIGN

So Craig you're telling me that becasue you've got Jack Jack, and Billy Joe working for you that this gives you insight into aggregate level white working class preferences?

Jack Jack?  Dayyum....., no, because I've worked with WPW my entire life, and because some WPW Work shoulder to shoulder at the center, and because many of my business associates are WPW made good, I believe I have some insight into WPW realities.  What exactly are your bona fides in this space Spence?

Did you even read the article you site? If the numbers are right a full 66% of black people recognize that immigrants are a problem but still don't believe that immigration should be cut back.

When push comes to shove, you're worse than DW on his worst day when it comes to disingenuous rhetoric.  A full 66% of black folks got no beef with controlled levels of legal immigration.  You should know better than to attempt some old weak-assed shit like that.

Mexican policy preferences don't align with white Republican policy preferences at all. (White) Cuban policy preferences do in Florida, but that's about it as far as I know. You've been talking about some mythical Lone Ranger who is going to come along and rally the folks together when the oil gets tight. Again based on aggregate level policy preferences and political behavior, it makes much more sense to organize them, than it does poor whites.

I'm going to assume that it makes more sense to you in the context of your ideological proclivities and non-existent practical exposure.  To make my case, I don't have to stretch any further than english as the language in common and resource competitors gathering on all fronts.  It's clear from everything you've said to this point that you have less practical experience in the sphere of the WPW than some of the less exposed undergraduates to whom you profess.  Since I know that the only spanish you speak is "yo quiero taco bell" - we can dispense with any illusions about your familiarity with Mexicans, north/south, and otherwise.   

That banana is stuck firmly in folks' tailpipe. Craig you might want to consider an enema.

Because you're young and I'm kind son, I'll act like that was that sip of beer you drank talking....,   

We should stop providing socal services and other forms of humanitarian aid to illegal immigrants except in emergencies.

KS - Please elaborate on the point I quote above. I am not sure that what you wrote is what you intended to write. 

He did the best he could with what little he has....,

Just like in the beginning of the twentieth century I believe that more blacks will swing against immigrants...even though they vote the same, and have the preferences as far as ending white supremacy

a pompous afrodemic blowhard could easily confuse a hongry racist tejano competitor with an enlightened and resource rich pardo ally and never know the difference.....,

The reasons why illegal and legal immigrants come to this country or any other country is separate and distinct from what they may need when they arrive. 

Let's not confuse the issues here.

Agreed...let's not.

They come for jobs. Take that away and they aren't here to seek social services. If you don't disrupt the ability to employ illegal immigrants, they will continue to come...the income differential between Mexico and anywhere in the USofA at all is just too great, and they won't miss what they didn't have in Mexico in the first place.

If you're looking to control illegal immigration and its impact, there is only one point at which you can effectively implement controls. If you've just swinging on immigrants, carry on.

I think that part of our problem here is that I don't agree that there is only one true way to address the problem of illegal immigration. It is a multi-faceted problem and resolving it to a degree will require a multi-faceted approach.

P6 did you check out Nick Kristoff in today's NYT. In it, he touches on the impact of the ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION, the proposed Guest wrker program for largely low skilled latins, and its negative impact of low skilled American workers.

Third, that from hence forth, if you are caught here without the proper authorization you when in a position to make available such a paperwork and you cannot do so because you are here illegally, after DNA swabs and iris scans, you will be deported.

Second, just because YOU make the decision to come here illegally, for economic reasons, does not justify you or qualify you in getting into "redress program" that were tailored, largely, for American Blacks.

If Ag workers are required, then have a policy that will legally facilitate this need be it employer/ee.

The question I am more concerned with is what are they going to do when a portion of the 12 million illegal immigrants who live in California and their spouses and children are granted citizenship and the memory of how the GOP tried to jack them up fades from memory?

The move toward the Democrats was already in the wind long before Kennedy if you look at local elections.

I know this, but the expectation was that they would serve as a leverage vote that would move to whatever party offered them the most.  by the early seventies this was impossible, because of the southern strategy.

Immigrant Crusade Enlists Few Blacks

"In this era of mass immigration, no group has benefited less or been harmed more than the African American population," said Vernon M. Briggs Jr., a Cornell University labor economist who has studied the effect of immigration on blacks for more than three decades.

In a 2004 book "The Impact of Immigration on African Americans," and in 2004 Congressional testimony Briggs and other scholars charted myriad effects, including lower wages for less skilled and less educated blacks and their substantial displacement from the job market, with many dropping out of the labor pool entirely. In education, they found that providing remedial resources for immigrant students cut into resources for native-born students and that immigrants modestly displaced blacks from affirmative action programs.

Vernon Briggs brings total clarity to the issue:

When the American Federation of Labor was first founded just shortly before the Supreme Court clearly established that immigration is the sole responsibility of the Federal Government, the first president of the American Federation of Labor, Samuel Gompers, who was himself an immigrant, said that the AFL immediately recognized the importance of restricting immigration. That doesn't mean no immigration, but restricting and enforcing an immigration policy.

In his autobiography, he said, quote, ''Immigration is in its fundamental aspects a labor problem,'' unquote, and I believe that sincerely. It is fundamentally a labor problem, and that is how immigration policy should be judged. Immigrants come here to work and they have influence on those others who do work. Also, their spouses and children ultimately do work. So it's fundamentally a labor issue. I think he was absolutely correct on that issue.

Until relatively recently, just in the last decade, organized labor recognized the wisdom of those words and acted accordingly. The first objective was to further the economic interest of citizen workers, native born and foreign born. That's the first responsibility of a labor movement and it should be the first responsibility of labor policy in the United States.

It is not to become the advocate of the pro-immigrant political lobby in supporting all kinds of things that are certainly contrary to the interest of working people, and this runs the gamut from more amnesties to guest worker programs to programs for getting for drivers' licenses, for repealing employer sanctions, all of these types of things that the pro-immigrant lobby pushes for.

Workers have no interest in any of that nonsense.

The argument in social informatics right now is that people go online (and pay!) for the social interactivity, rather than for the fantasy elements.  to me, that sounds half-baked (being a half-assed gamer myself), but it leads to some interesting speculation.

It is half baked...the fantasy elements enable the socializing.

namely, how could you design an interactive website for Black communities based on social interactivity in a gaming context?

You mean with avatars and what not?

I also brought up the idea to Earl of somehow creating a blog that does nothing more than present scholarship on subjects relating to black life.  The central problem is that the various clearing houses that we as academics have access to are not available to the general public.  And we don't have the time to "market" our own research.

Cn thanks for the links. They were considerably crucial to some data I'm gathering.

Also, as part their effort to support or reflect their crucial role in the American economy, it seems Monday's demonstration was also suppose to stop commerce to show their importance. As I understand media reports on the demonstration commerce continued without missing a beat, other than few evening rush  hour traffic jams. And as far as picking veges/fruits etc, perhaps their roles will decline in this sphere, once mechanization moves in, as happen with Blacks and cotton as one example.

And as far as picking veges/fruits etc, perhaps their roles will decline in this sphere, once mechanization moves in, as happen with Blacks and cotton as one example.

Actually, yeah.

From a purely economics point of view, farmers hiring illegal aliens can be seen as a response to industrialized farming, whose scale and mechanization affects smaller farms the same way the plantation system did in pre-Civil War America. It's not, but...

PLOS = Public Library of Science.

I've looked at  Open Journal Systems, a really capable journal production system. Supports peer review, pdf publication, free, paid, and free-after-a-period-of-time models. It's compatible with the Open Archives Initiative.

I can think of a lot of stuff to do with it.

CREEPING IRRELEVANCE?

No such thing on an open thread brah...,

Lack of tools, historical reference, ideological context, imagination, and get-up-and-go - to reconstruct an entire belief and behaviour system over the physical constraints of net energy and carrying capacity. 

Since progressive ideology hasn't actually made it past the complaint and politic level of development - to the assessment, architecture, and implementation phase of practical maturity, I think there is some hardcare denial and evasion.  What do you expect G?

Shiiiiit...., it's the microcosmic image of the political macrocosm of inertia afflicting the democrat party.  Basically waiting and hoping that the GOP will self-destruct under the weight of its own lawlessness and incompetence.  Problem is, the whole apparatus is spiralling into an unstable condition.  The neocon energy elites are going for the tried and true policy of violent imperialism and reimposition of darwinian/dickensian standards of living.  There is modelable history of stable and continuous governance undergirding that approach. 

It's worked before, and it's likely to work again.  OTOH - the democrats and the progressive wing of that party are an historical anomaly and a fragile artifact of the oil age.  They have no practical solutions to offer, and frankly lack the testicular fortitude to assert forward propositions and potentially further alienate the conservative elements who've cast the die that will control all strategic play for years to come.

Might as well talk about virtual reality and pretend to have a clue rather than engage the hard problem of reality and be exposed as way up shit's creek without a map, rudder, or paddle...,

CP it isn't as tough as you might think.  It CAN be a one RA job--I was strongly considering paying a research assistant to do the work. 

What you'd do is take a couple of issue areas, and then once a month do a keyword search.  Then take the article titles and the abstracts, post them....and if necessary break them down in a way that a high school graduate could understand.  There are maybe four quality academic search engines that I use routinely for this type of thing.  Again, like Earl, I just don't have the time to do it myself--and at this point I don't even have the time to task an RA to do it.

Are you suggesting sometype of more general website that we could place our work on before we published it?  That sounds like a good idea.  There are three hurdles--the fear of theft, the fear of rejection (drafts suck as a general rule), and the collective action problem in general.