they will not listen. It seems that modern racial ideology is based on language of liberalism ("I am all for equal opportunity; that's why I oppose affirmative action!"). Today's liberal racist do not feel guilty about a minorities' plight because they simply believe if minorities are not succeeding it's because they are not trying hard enough. And if you look at the criteria, which is based on the so-called "top 100 progressive bloggers" which I recently end up finding out that list is based on "those with the most traffic and/or inbound links, as indicated in the ecosystem or the progressive blog report." So in other words, if we don't get all these cool inbound links either by this ecosystem or not part of this illusive "progressive blog report" it is our own damn fault. It is easy for them to use excuses as to why minorities are not invited. So someone like who is new, well, I need to work harder to get their link love and traffic. And with someone like you who has been around longer than me, well have either weren't getting with the program because you do meet the traffic requirement but not the link love.

It really looks like there really is big collective denial when it comes race relations and they have no problem with it. They complain when minorities do not participate but what they do not realize it is this behavior that is their biggest obstacles for them to do the right thing.

And with someone like you who has been around longer than me, well have either weren't getting with the program because you do meet the traffic requirement but not the link love.

Right now I see somewhere around 400 unique visitors a day, discounting RSS feeds. That's nothing by their lights. Around the 2004 election I was overtly political and got up to around 1000 distinct, but I consciously changed direction. 

Honestly, I feel I could have been part of the A-list cohort (which is larger than the A-list itself...think carrier groups) but I didn't try really hard. I was a founding member of a site called Open Source Politics, but even then not all the members blogrolled me...I told the founder of the site it would happen, and Lo...

I can post at The American Street, but haven't done that in a while. I'm a member of BlogCritics but that was more useful in my over politics days (though it was fun swatting flies in there for a while).

That's as close as I've gotten to the social side of traffic whoring. I am not immune to the lure of the spotlight but I don't do stuff the spotlight likes. So be it...because I know my traffic is mine. So I don't ever get to feeling too threatened. Hence my freedom to engage in the upcoming experiment.

someone like who is new, well, I need to work harder to get their link love and traffic.

That's something I've considered on a purely selfish tip because I want to checkout new voices (I'm too old to pick up shit on the block) but got distracted by fucking life.

"I have come to understand that the race is not the problem, racism is the problem."

You can't have one without the other, my friend. And that's the problem!

O:

How about: it's the connotations, not the denotations that are the problem.

I know where you're at, but I'm code switching on a deep, comprehensive level. 

Oh well, it was great while it lasted.

BTW, completely off topic, but thanks for the cite back in August about the accountability testing in Texas. I noticed through a google search. I saw the Texas Miracle 2.0 coming way before the article came out. Here in Texas, they just added another layer of accountability. Now the state will monitor the number of enter college students enrolling in remedial classes, the higher the number, the lower the score the school will receive. Mind you, they will not modify how they do currently monitor the accountability testing, so high school will have added pressure.

"How about: it's the connotations, not the denotations that are the problem."

I don't see how you can separate the two. In my way of thinking the concept of race provides the theoretical basis for racism--which, when properly defined, is merely applied race theory. 

the concept...provides the theoretical basis...when properly defined

I don't do definitions. I do indications.

The constellation of appearances that tag you by race are all cosmetic. Apply NO FURTHER CONCEPTUALIZATION (i.e., racism) and the correlated cosmetics are no problem unless you want to get laid and you just ain't someone's flavor of the day.

On the code switching tip, white folks need a way to think about race without their heads exploding. I may decide to help folks work that out.

That statement underscores the inherent problem that exists in any attempt to code switch. To believe in "racial tags" in any form--whether you refer to them as "cosmetic" or not--is to start from a fallacy. Those "characteristics" don't tag you or anyone else by race; those who conceptualized race conceptualized those tags and tagged you and others with them. The "cosmetics" or "tags" which you seem to think are somehow benign are in fact the very root of the system. Race is predicated on the notion that perceived phenotypic differences (differences in the outward physical appearances of human beings) denote innate and immutable biological differences and characteristics. Those supposed biological markers are then extrapolated to signify differences in other areas: human intelligence, morality, character, etc. Given this fact of how "race" is conceived and how the idea operates as a false consciousness in human societies, it doesn't matter whether you choose to APPLY NO FUTHER CONCEPTUALIZATION. The template is set. Like a cookie pan, you can change the dough but the cookies will all come out the same shape. That's my weak ass way of saying: code switch all you want, the underlying "message" will remain the same.

Helping folks understand their humanity sans race is the approach I would take.

To believe in "racial tags" in any form--whether you refer to them as "cosmetic" or not--is to start from a fallacy.

You don't have to believe in them to see that others do.

Helping folks understand their humanity sans race is the approach I would take.

Totally. But where do you start? You're talking to people to whom race is a primary conceptual category. You can't destroy it...I don't mean won't, I mean can't. But you may be able to render it transparent.

"But where do you start?"

You start with facts not fallacies.

"You're talking to people to whom race is a primary conceptual category."

We all share the experience of racialization and to various degrees are victims of the ignorance that fosters and sustains it. But we also have the ability to overcome this form of brainwashing and the ill-telligence that makes it possible. The fact we are having this discussion is proof we can transcend the false consciousness that produces racialist thought (and behavior).  

"You can't destroy it...I don't mean won't, I mean can't. But you may be able to render it transparent."

No, you can't destroy an illusion. But you certainly can reveal it for what it is. Pull back the curtain, unveil the smoke and mirrors, place racial ideas and theories in their appropriate historical contexts, and the facts will begin to speak for themselves.

A preliminary question one might ask in search of facts is: when and where did the term Caucasian arise? Understanding how Caucasians were "invented" helps to dispell the myths that form and inform racial identity and racial ideology.

That's us, son. White folks have different needs.

You can not solve their race problem with effects that will correct ours. And in THAT thread I am addressing THEIR problem.

it sounds to me like this is the blue pill vs. the red pill, Morpheus!

And here's the thing: the red pill counters a different toxin than the blue one does.

"That's us, son. White folks have different needs.

How so?

You can not solve their race problem with effects that will correct ours. And in THAT thread I am addressing THEIR problem."

Review your premise as stated above and recognize that it is grounded in the fallacies you are seeking to address. The "us" and "them" referents (like "white" and "black") are indicative of the problem. The problem cannot be corrected in black or white variants. It will either be eliminated within human society by human beings or it will not.  

"That's us, son. White folks have different needs.

How so?

Our race problem is, we don't want to experience racism. Their race problem is they don't want to be responsible for racism.

What you are talking about learning...or unlearning...has made a lot of Black folk immune, or less sensitive to that experience.

How does it address their problem? It doesn't.

so, i don't know how you solve "their problem" when the delusion is so much sweeter than the reality.

By not giving a damn about their delusion.

They don't want to be responsible for racism, fine. That requires them to behave in non-racist ways. The problem is 'race' the concept brings a cascade of connotations that 'constituency' does not.

And they know how to respond properly to an allied constituency. 

Like I said at MyDD: this is a modeling tool only, and only for those white folks who claim they need advice on how not to be racist. 

For Black folks, the modeling tool is: assume whatever you think of white people RIGHT NOW is true and will never, ever, ever change. 

"How does it address their problem? It doesn't."

My approach isn't designed to address "their" problem. My focus is on dealing with the problem. Their racism is our problem, collectively, whether we take ownership of it or not. The idea that we can somehow separate the victimizers from the victims and treat the former and solve the problem just doesn't fly. Racism is a disease that infects and affects us all. Clearly it has wrecked havoc on the psyche and well being of so-called "black" folks. We need a cure from racism as much or moreso than the racists themselves. Moreover, the victimizers are also negatively impacted by racism: it has turned them into psychopaths, murders, degenerates and social misfits. Racists are the hosts and carriers of this virulent disease. But you can't wipe out the disease just by treating its hosts; you have to treat everyone who has been exposed or infected.

You also state that "white" folks' problem is: they don't want to be responsible for racism. Since when? How many "white" folks have denounced "whiteness" (not to be confused with Irishness or Frenchness or any other European ethnicity)? How many have entered a twelve step program to detox from their addiction to "white" privilege?

"White" people have no problem being racists as long as it can be justified for social, moral, religious or economic reasons (as long as there is some benefit no matter how minute or intangible). They continue to rehabilitate and refine the tenets of scientific racism to add new weapons to their arsenal of rationales when other arguments fail (it's like the Bush admin explaining the reason du jour for the invasion of Iraq). For example, they love to replay the IQ/Bell Curve game in public discourse to perpetuate the idea of white supremacy and preserve the status quo of black inferiority. What else can they do when confronted by "black" CEOs or Secretaries of State or the rise of a solid "black" intelligencia and middle class?

The antidote for this virulent strain of ignorance that is racism has always been to expose these contradictions, show the lies of race in the light of the facts about the history and development of human societies. That's why I advocate an approach grounded in education and historical consciousness. 

No argument.

Now, given that's their nature, how do you change them? You don't. They can't even hear you.

So...as I just said is the model for Black folks...you don't even try. I'm strictly on a behavior tip here. I'm talking about how you shift the odds in the current situation, without waiting for anyone's edge-mocation to be complete.

Again, the model is intended to produce correct behavior irrespective of underlying motivation. If they see you as a friendly constituent (which you are, so this imposes no expectations on Black folk) they know how to act. It is not intended to be the antidote to racism. No such implication was ever made by me.

"Now, given that's their nature, how do you change them?"

I don't. That's not my job or objective. They have to change their own damn selves. My aim would be to change the sociology of knowledge (ignorance) that permeates the culture and that fosters and sustains racists and racism. Expose the lies, expose the contradictions, replace their fallacies with fact, and you systematically eliminate the rhetorical and discursive crutches that have propped up their straw man for centuries.

The process I am describing has been ongoing since the advent of white supremacist ideology (read Fredrick Douglass' "The Claims of the Negro Ethnologically Considered" for an example of this strategy at work during the last century).

This is a long-term process. That's the proper context for understanding this work. Our elders and ancestors knew this and acted accordingly to prepare future generations for the struggle. Racism has evolved over a period of centuries; its deracination won't happen overnight.

I don't. That's not my job or objective. They have to change their own damn selves. My aim would be to change the sociology of knowledge (ignorance) that permeates the culture and that fosters and sustains racists and racism.

So your argument isn't that I'm approaching it wrong. Your argument is that I shouldn't approach it at all.

"Your argument is that I shouldn't approach it at all."

P6, I would be the last person to tell you what battles to choose to fight. As I said above, I wouldn't make so-called "white" people the object of my efforts. I would target their belief system and the ethos that sustains it. That's the approach I have taken. Based on that, it appears we continue to disagree about strategies and tactics. 

I honestly don't care what they believe as long as they behave. That's pretty much where I am with everyone.

I wouldn't make so-called "white" people the object of my efforts.

Exclusively, no.

But I don't think focusing exclusively on us is the move either.

Abstract the content: how is it different than Bill Cosby's exclusive focus on us? If I had Cosby's stage, I'd be telling folks to buy books on management, sales and advertising to learn all the knee-jerk triggers people have.

In this way I'm a centrist: knowledge of other is as important to me as knowledge of self.

I went out for my daily constitutional this morning after making what I consider a pretty nifty rejoinder over at brah Cobb's joint - in which I delved a bit more deeply into what I consider to be one particularly high-value characteristic of Black folks special cultural competency. I bring this up here and now because I've adopted a position wrt Cobb's conservatism as a management, sales, and advertising strategy in which he endeavors simultaneous bridge building and political capital accumulation with and among white folks (not constrained to the standard patois of safe interracial small talk about food, fashion, or sports).

Once I began to look at the Cobbian programme in this way, and I'm 99% certain that that's what it is, it has become very easy to decode much of what he presents with good humour. He's building an elaborate RPG narrative on the fly, and is good naturedly open to debugging suggestions. I'm not posting this on this thread to criticize his programme, because at the very least I find it to be an interesting angle of approach - and here-to-date - he has not denied that that is what he's up to. Matter of fact, brah man treats his narrative like a program, rather than like a system of identity.

There's additional background to this morning's discussion, specifically, a nasty little hack I threw into his library a couple months ago which goes to the underlying psychology of racist praxis among ordinary white folks. Data suggests that there should be little doubt concerning the presence of this tendency - and moreover - suggests significant modification of the program for racist remediation.

The assumption behind prior scholarship and diversity training initiatives was that whites overlooked their own race.

Not only could I have told you that, I believe I did.

There's another piece of background that fits into the puzzle here;

Bomani Jones has an excellent piece up about Dave Chappelle. In it he uses the term, subconscious intellectual that will become a recurrent part of my lexicon.

Instead of *moral objectivity*, *spiritual athleticism* and other terms I have glommed onto in the past to describe the tangible difference between black and white culture/psychology, henceforward, I'll begin using *subconcious intellectual* - THIS - imoho is the distinguishing structural hallmark of black culture and its unique productions - including individual black psychology. Anyway, here's how I expressed my AHA moment over there - and I believe it directly applicable to the issues raised over here.

Which brings me full around to the AHA moment du jour I experienced about 1.5 Mile into my morning outing; if Black psychology and the culture it has spawned is a beneficial adaptation supporting levels of introspection unavailable to ordinary white folks - the prospect for teaching them to do better is approximately as daunting as teaching them to grow gills.

They've never been subject to the environmental pressure that has forced some of us to evolve non-formatory and subconsciously intellectual modes of cognition. Chances are, they never will be.

Which brings me full around to the AHA moment du jour I experienced about 1.5 Mile into my morning outing; if Black psychology and the culture it has spawned is a beneficial adaptation supporting levels of introspection unavailable to ordinary white folks - the prospect for teaching them to do better is approximately as daunting as teaching them to grow gills.

And what do you think will be the effect on the Black psyche of seeing an honest attempt to give them what they say they need be rejected out of hand, or fail due to inability on the part of the subject?

On the other hand, what do you think would be the impact on Black folks' reality if it succeeded?

Seriously, I'm talking win-win here. 

"I honestly don't care what they believe as long as they behave. That's pretty much where I am with everyone."

Let's not get sidetracked by semantics here. My use of the term "belief system" was intended to include those ideas, conscious or "subconsiously intellectual" (to borrow Bomain Jones' turn of phrase cited above by cnulan via cobb) upon which racist behaviors and actions are predicated and become praxis, and, the racist actions themselves. From my perspective, the belief system and the actions it inspires are part of a continuum. Given the socio-politcal power of "whites" to actuate, enact, and institutionalize racism, their beliefs and behaviors are inextricably intertwined.

"But I don't think focusing exclusively on us is the move either."

I agree. I haven't advocated doing so anywhere in this discussion.

"In this way I'm a centrist: knowledge of other is as important to me as knowledge of self."

In my experience, most "black" folks are intimately acquainted with "other" (i.e. so-called "whites"). It's in the arena of "knowledge of "self" that we are lacking. In the final anaysis, however, both "self" and "other" are psycho-social constructs that have no more validity as categories than we invest in them. That, at least, is a rather Zen-like way of seeing or not seeing it.

cnulan, I was following the yellow road assiduously, popping link after link, until I got here:

"Not only could I have told you that, I believe I did"

Those stepping stones are busted.

And what do you think will be the effect on the Black psyche of seeing an honest attempt to give them what they say they need be rejected out of hand, or fail due to inability on the part of the subject?

"Rejection" and "inability" in this case more often than not turn out to be two sides of the same psychological coin. Such an evolutionary project is stuck on the perennial horn of telling a sleeping man that he is asleep. Though objectively true, and plainly evident to those who are awake, the sleeping man doesn't believe it, and hearing it from you is certain to offend him deeply.

On the other hand, what do you think would be the impact on Black folks' reality if it succeeded?

Jes Grew, America would realize its evolutionary potential and become a multi-hued nation of psychologically Black folks.

Here's the problem as I see it. Racination, once implanted, requires a minimum of top-down effort to sustain. So long as you have any elements in the population who actively utilize it as a survival strategy, it cannot be eliminated. I don't know why this didn't occur to me earlier, but it probably looks damn near identical to the hawks vs. doves game.

Use this one they're a couple paragraphs down from the top

I simply pulled them up to amplify them, (copying without re-linking) P6 had already embedded them in his original post. Guess I need to check them more carefully in the preview...,

And what do you think will be the effect on the Black psyche of seeing an honest attempt to give them what they say they need be rejected out of hand, or fail due to inability on the part of the subject?

"Rejection" and "inability" in this case more often than not turn out to be two sides of the same psychological coin. Such an evolutionary project is stuck on the perennial horn of telling a sleeping man that he is asleep. Though objectively true, and plainly evident to those who are awake, the sleeping man doesn't believe it, and hearing it from you is certain to offend him deeply.

So...you think Black people will be mad at me for demonstrating it?

I confess, it's a possibility I never considered. If you're right, it's not a win-win for me personally. Collectively, though

On the other hand, what do you think would be the impact on Black folks' reality if it succeeded?

Jes Grew, America would realize its evolutionary potential and become a multi-hued nation of psychologically Black folks.

...I stand by my estimate of things.

Racination, once implanted, requires a minimum of top-down effort to sustain. So long as you have any elements in the population who actively utilize it as a survival strategy, it cannot be eliminated.

Don't I say all up in the thread that you can't change it in people?

The model, for Black folks, is to assume that whatever you think about white folks right now will never, ever, ever change. And you use that model until you get proof it is no longer appropriate.

"I honestly don't care what they believe as long as they behave. That's pretty much where I am with everyone."

Let's not get sidetracked by semantics here. My use of the term "belief system" was intended to include those ideas, conscious or "subconsiously intellectual" (to borrow Bomain Jones' turn of phrase cited above by cnulan via cobb) upon which racist behaviors and actions are predicated and become praxis, and, the racist actions themselves. From my perspective, the belief system and the actions it inspires are part of a continuum. Given the socio-politcal power of "whites" to actuate, enact, and institutionalize racism, their beliefs and behaviors are inextricably intertwined.

I see no sidetracked semantics. Keeping every word you wrote in mind, I repeat: I don't care what they believe as long as they behave.

In the final anaysis, however, both "self" and "other" are psycho-social constructs that have no more validity as categories than we invest in them.

We gotta talk one day. 

Okay guys, you been asking and I been answering.

My turn.

What exactly do you think I'm trying to do?

And are we yet clear on the need of approaching Black people's race issues differently than white people races issues due to those issues being entirely different things? It's like we're suffereng from different vitamin deficiencies but both malnourished. Doesn't that make sense?

So...you think Black people will be mad at me for demonstrating it?

Black conservatives would be..., because it's antithetical to one of their core beliefs, but that's not where I was coming from. I failed to completely answer your question. I think most Black folks are simply resigned to the status quo. Most anti-racists catch pure-d-pure hell from the whites they nudge, and most Black folks gently tolerate the activities of anti-racists much as we tolerate other evangelically minded folks like Jehovah's Witnesses.

I confess, it's a possibility I never considered. If you're right, it's not a win-win for me personally. Collectively, though

From my perspective, deracination is a psychological higher reality. Forecasting your likely results with the masses - only twenty percent of all people ever think seriously about higher realities; of these, only twenty percent ever decide to do anything about it; and of these, only five percent ever actually get anywhere.

Basically, white folks' race issue is they don't want to be held responsible for racism.

I believe that much racist behaviour is beneath the threshold of the awareness of its perpetrators..., thus their denial. Cobb's correspondent Laura engaged in some picture perfect unintended self-disclosure. No way in hell she considers herself racist, matter of fact, she has nice negro friends at church and at work.

She is a poster child for the right hand quite literally not knowing what the left hand is doing. She is not personally responsible for the stupid and misdirected and institutionalized racism of retail security guards who profile and harrass black shoppers. What would you have her do about it? Shoplift so that the guards think middle-aged white women are thieves too? That shit cracked me up!!! Basic guarantee that I was going to begin washing and cutting vegetables in preparation for a little rabbit stew....,

Meanwhile, the powers that be continuously condition the collective white left hand to process reality in myriad highly racinated ways, while conditioning the collective white right hand to pay lip service to a color-blind society. Shit is more insidious and vastly more longstanding than the propagandistic manipulations underway in support of the GWOT.

And are we yet clear on the need of approaching Black people's race issues differently than white people races issues due to those issues being entirely different things?

It's like we're suffereng from different vitamin deficiencies but both malnourished. Doesn't that make sense?

So long as there are folks actively and institutionally infecting the population, you can't win. Methinkst all you can practically strive for is to immunize Black folks against the debilitating symptoms of the psychopathology while striving to shore up and maximize our material autonomy toward achievement of a competing critical mass.

So...you think Black people will be mad at me for demonstrating it?

Black conservatives would be..., because it's antithetical to one of their core beliefs, but that's not where I was coming from.

Good, because you know I don't give a damn about that...

only twenty percent of all people ever think seriously about higher realities; of these, only twenty percent ever decide to do anything about it; and of these, only five percent ever actually get anywhere.

Okay. So the point is it's pointless to try.

I believe that much racist behaviour is beneath the threshold of the awareness of its perpetrators...

I can't believe you wrote that...

So long as there are folks actively and institutionally infecting the population, you can't win.

I believe that much racist behaviour is beneath the threshold of the awareness of its perpetrators...

I can't believe you wrote that...

the problem of subthreshold psychological content is foundational to my worldview - as I have repeatedly demonstrated in discussion hereabouts.  It's not as if racination is the exclusive province of this phenomenon, it just happens to be one in which I have a personal stake, and, which is common to the experience of many.

We could easily shift this discussion to the problem of inductive vs deductive logic, but the only thing that might accomplish is make the particulars more obscure and cumbersome to articulate.

So long as there are folks actively and institutionally infecting the population, you can't win.

Again, what do you think I'm trying to do?

IMO, you've actually reached the limits of what you can do. Unless you can now leverage this into a competing critical mass with resources adequate to oppose and compromise the antagonistic sources of mass contagion - I believe you've reached the functional limits of the medium at your disposal.

4GW demonstrations of effective resistance to centralized force projection lend themselves to hopefulness in this sphere, however, it's not clear that you've devised an effective cellular model for psychological insurgency.

Frankly, I think you're fishing..., not an inherently bad thing, but not exactly a program for change that you can operationalize, either. I'd be very interested in reading the specifics of the Promethean program instead of projectively speculating about its possible outlines.

We could easily shift this discussion to the problem of inductive vs deductive logic,

Nah, that's aight. 

What happens when you raise the energy of the process above the threshold of consciousness? Because attention is energy. Stare at a kid on the bus for a few minutes if you doubt me.

Remember where we started: white folks who say they want to do the right thing but don't know how. If they're serious, helping them would be a good thing. If they are just throwing off a line to bat back the negroes, exposing that difinitively would be a good thing.

Win-win. 

Frankly, I think you're fishing...

Sometimes. Gotta start somewhere. And frankly it needs to be something that hasn't been tried before.

American Intrapolitics: I feel the need to repeat myself

We confuse a bunch of us doing the same thing with collective action. We confuse business plans for progressive thought. We're totally American now.

Yup. Starting from scratch.

I'd be very interested in reading the specifics of the Promethean program

I don't issue imperitives, remember? I learn, I teach. And rant. That's the program on the collective tip.

What happens when you raise the energy of the process above the threshold of consciousness? Because attention is energy. Stare at a kid on the bus for a few minutes if you doubt me.

Perfect agreement, vamping on that same example, it has never ceased to amaze me the extent to which kids seek and devour attention like it was nourishment. My children and I routinely play the eyeball pressure game. i.e., we stare at the back of one another's heads surreptitiously in order to trigger awareness. Snaps and cracks ensue about the strength or weakness of the surreptitious starer's eyebeams...,

I also consider the philological conjunction of "pay" and "attention" no accident in the language. Not only is attention energy, it is vital energy with which we absolutely transact with one another.

Remember where we started: white folks who say they want to do the right thing but don't know how.

IMOHO - white folks who succeed in making this transition, typically begin by wanting to do something completely unrelated. Take for example some of my business partners. We start out as mere acquaintences with a short term project or goal in common. On the basis of that shared project objective, we begin our working relationship. They want to accomplish the same things I want to accomplish. Given time, the upshot of our professional association becomes intimate familiarity with one another's psyches, family, friends, and microcultures of origin. Once comfortably introduced to my section of the Blackosphere, gradually, surreptitiously, you know what gets installed in their heads, and without exception, all have admitted that they never could or never would go back.

Now I've never proselytized and never once have I been approached by someone expressing a desire to be different. Nevertheless, not once has the process of installation failed to take effect - given sufficient access and exposure, time and attention. I've come to conclude that it's chemical with an imitative transmission vector, in other words, completely subconscious in nature.

Now this is just me, individual mileage and conversion experiences may vary.., however, if somebody approached me claiming to want to do the right thing, I believe I'd make tracks and put some distance between them and me.

---

And are we yet clear on the need of approaching Black people's race issues differently than white people races issues due to those issues being entirely different things? It's like we're suffereng from different vitamin deficiencies but both malnourished. Doesn't that make sense?

Makes sense to me in the context of the victim/victimizer dichotomy. But I don't think they are entirely different things. I think it's the same damn thing experienced differently.

I'm not trying to belabor the point here. What I'm trying to get at is ... let's look at it this way ... Let's just take the idea of race itself--the notion that outward physical characteristics signify innate and immutable biological differences between human groups. This is the foundational concept which then manifests itself consciously or subconsciously in the form of different issues depending upon whether "race" is perceived and experienced as a subjective or objective phenomena. I would argue that for so-called "whites" race is an object. It ain't them. It ain't about them. As far as they are concerned "white is the normative condition of human existence, everything else is deviant. Consequently, "white" people don't have a problem with race, they have a "race problem"--that problem is us. We, according to their perceptions, are the signifiers and bearers of "racial" difference. They are normal, natural, perfect in their "whiteness."

Most so-called "blacks", on the other hand, given their historical experiences and conditioning in a white supremacist system, have internalized racialized identity and consciousness to the extent it has become a core component of "black" subjectivity. For those of us trapped in this matrix, the race wars must be fought on two fronts: inside and outside, psychologically and socially.

This is the best I can do with the question right now... cause I gotta go.

IMOHO - white folks who succeed in making this transition, typically begin by wanting to do something completely unrelated.

When I've done this before, it was by accident. And it was always someone curious about the discussion, never the one arguing the other side. 

I think it's the same damn thing experienced differently.

It would be very easy for us to have nothing to argue about. Nothing you've said opposes anything I've said.